Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Australia Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: Harmonious Ocean - Future direction of Sino-American relations from an Oz perspective
fall out    11/21/2010 9:26:45 PM
First of all, howdy! Been a while since I've posted anything on here, rest assured I have been lurking in the background reading some threads here and there. Hope everyone is well... Back on topic, came across parts of this article in the Australian and I pulled the full version and I thought you guys might appreciate a read of it, not to mention discussing the essays points. Enjoy FO :) -------------------------------------------------------- Harmonious Ocean - Brig Gen John Frewen In March 2009, China’s Defense Minister, Liang Guanglie, announced that China planned to equip the People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) with two conventional aircraft carriers by 2015. China has not previously pursued this capability formally. Unconfirmed media reports suggest that China will possibly also seek two additional nuclear-powered carriers by 2020. China justifies the procurement of carriers as logical for a nation of its size and economic influence, and necessary to defend its interests. For the Chinese people, carriers will be the jewels in the crown of a powerful navy, one befitting China’s rising great nation status. Having shaken off subjugation by foreign powers during the 18th and 19th centuries, China is moving rapidly toward the center of the international stage. After 30years of remarkable economic growth and are shaping of the world’s economic landscape in its favor, China is poised to step into a new, possibly global, era. Proud of its culture, traditions, and rising international status, China views the next 15 to 20 years as a “strategic window of opportunity”—a time for “national revitalization through continued economic, social and military development.” China’s emerging role in global affairs is, as yet, uncertain. The nation has unresolved historical and domestic issues that color its strategic judgments and make its intentions difficult to predict. It is also possible that China is growing and changing in ways the ruling Chinese Communist Party (CCP) cannot control or predict. Accompanying rapid economic growth are burgeoning maritime trade and energy requirements, a growing middle class, and an increase in nationalism. In addition to these challenges, the CCP faces domestic poverty, rising unemployment, criticism of its own performance, a leadership transition in 2012, and a range of separatist movements. Of all of these, the CCP’s uneasy social contract with its increasingly affluent middle class is most notable. If the CCP is to retain its one-party rule, it must continue to deliver increasing prosperity and individual convenience, in part by ensuring China’s access to trade and resources, particularly oil. Chinese strategists are acutely aware that they could do little in response if the United States chose tomorrow to constrict China’s maritime access to oil, minerals, andmarkets. China’s concern for its strategic sea lanes, and a sense that great nations have great navies, has drawn it to a carrier force of its own. The appearance of the first Chinese aircraft carrier in the Pacific will resonate throughout the region and change the current dynamic. In Australia’s case, the carriers present a particular conundrum. Australia’s defense and security policy has been underpinned by its traditional friendship and alliance with the United States since World War II. However, since 2007, China has become Australia’s primary trading partner. Any future tensions or conflict between the United States and China in the Pacific could place Australia in a potentially invidious position—torn between security and trade. This article discusses what Chinese carriers might mean to the Asia-Pacific region and the implications for Australia’s longstanding alliance with the United States, particularly in the event of escalating U.S.-China maritime tensions. Short of open conflict, the greatest risk presented by Chinese carriers is a self-fulfilling prophecy of a U.S.-China cold war. If conflict rather than accommodation is to mark China’s rise, Australia must weigh the relative benefits of its U.S. alliance against other alternatives—such as neutrality or defense self-sufficiency—before being caught in a conflict contrary to its long-term national interests. Background Uncontested U.S. primacy in the Asia-Pacific has been a source of great stability for over half a century. For instance, between July 1995 and March 1996, the deployment of two U.S. carrier battle groups to the South China Sea defused escalating tensions between China and Taiwan. At the time, the role of the carrier groups in the standoff infuriated the Chinese. This response, and U.S. Secretary of Defense William Perry’s boast that “while the Chinese are a great military power, the premier—the strongest—military power in the Western Pacific is the United States,” contributed to a long-term Chinese determination to counter overwhelming U.S. maritime might. The People’s Republic of China began a military
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2
YelliChink       11/21/2010 9:35:03 PM
I don't understand why the commie carriers make so much deal. The commies are certainly idiotic if they build carriers for real. Land based missile system and long range bombers can kill those carriers. Not to mention combined sub forces of the USN, JMSDF and ROKN. Besides, that will make the military imbalance so large that ROCN might start to receive subs and building long range AShM. Supersonic, of course. As for the impact of commie carriers to Australia. Duh! You have no territorial dispute with PRC. However, there is concern regarding WWIII type scenario which a full commie invasion force may be heading toward Australia. So........
 
Maybe QEII for RAN isn't that a ridiculous idea after all.
 
Quote    Reply

SteveJH       11/22/2010 3:41:29 PM
We've never pursued nuclear weapons? Is the Author sure? Because i'm fairly sure we were until the Brits agreed not to help us in return for polaris. We signed the non-proliferation treaty a couple of years later.
 
As for carriers, better to go for a sea denial force (submarines) since we'd never be able to match china carrier-on-carrier.
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       11/22/2010 3:57:32 PM

We've never pursued nuclear weapons? Is the Author sure?

the author is wrong.
 
we had a nuclear weapons development program that was running in parallel with the decision to buy the F-111's.  The nuke weapons program was abandoned when the US agreed to provide Australia and Germany nuclear protection if we abandoned weaps programs and joined the NPT
 
The UK only blew things up on our soil, they never provided weapons tech and refused to assist in the early 60's.  One of the reasons why we changed our focus to the US was because we were able to leverage better tech arrangements from the US.
 
It started with the F-111's and Charlie Adams and gathered momentum.
quite frankly, there is quite a bit wrong with that article wrt factual accuracy. 

 
Quote    Reply

fall out       11/22/2010 8:23:13 PM




We've never pursued nuclear weapons? Is the Author sure?





the author is wrong.

 we had a nuclear weapons development program that was running in parallel with the decision to buy the F-111's.  The nuke weapons program was abandoned when the US agreed to provide Australia and Germany nuclear protection if we abandoned weaps programs and joined the NPT

 The UK only blew things up on our soil, they never provided weapons tech and refused to assist in the early 60's.  One of the reasons why we changed our focus to the US was because we were able to leverage better tech arrangements from the US.

 It started with the F-111's and Charlie Adams and gathered momentum.

quite frankly, there is quite a bit wrong with that article wrt factual accuracy. 
In the '60s there were a number of senior lvl Suits and Uniforms who were pushing and making some progress for our own Nuclear Energy and Weapons program.
I know that Menzies basically told the poms where to go after they refused to hand over any bombs or blueprints and hence they moved their testing grounds to the US...
 
Not sure if anyone knows much about the Brigadier, think he won some award for the essay in the states where he wrote it...
 
 
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       11/24/2010 4:27:08 AM
From what I remember of the Cabinet papers which were released under the 30 year rule, the Government considered starting a nuclear weapons program for Australia but wasn't keen on the idea because of the cost. Then the NTP came along and buried the idea altogether. I don't think we ever did any actual work on nukes, beyond putting together a proposal for them.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain    BTW...   11/24/2010 4:37:10 AM
... gidday FO, long time no speak! How is life treating you these days, did you end up travelling like you had planned to?
 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       11/24/2010 12:39:09 PM

From what I remember of the Cabinet papers which were released under the 30 year rule, the Government considered starting a nuclear weapons program for Australia but wasn't keen on the idea because of the cost. Then the NTP came along and buried the idea altogether. I don't think we ever did any actual work on nukes, beyond putting together a proposal for them.


Better late than never.
 
Quote    Reply

gf0012-aust       11/24/2010 4:02:06 PM


Better late than never.

it was the US that "encouraged" aust to stop development.
if the US hadn't had a vested interest in having germany and australia sign up to the NPT we would have continued on.  We were motivated by UK instransigence over Woomera and the rejection of providing 2 x nukes during Konfrontassi (a good thing however) - and the fact that UK at the time still regarded RAN as being symbolically part of their Far East Fleet.  The F-111's were initially intended to be nuke strikers - (also why Vigilantes were considered) - so a few cultural and political disconnects were "pushing" australia away from the normal commonwealth military relationship...
 
Quote    Reply

YelliChink       11/24/2010 4:22:17 PM



it was the US that "encouraged" aust to stop development.

Yeah, that really surprised me. I mean really. Actually, not really.
 
Some of the agenda of US foreign policy was directed from Moscow in the old days. The de-nuking of some of the most crucial and reliable allies (such as Australia) never make any sense. If Americans can ever fix their country, then common sense may have a chance to return to US foreign policy.
 
And maybe the Uncle Sam will be too sick to enforce his foreign policy in the near future.
 
Quote    Reply

Aussiegunneragain       11/25/2010 5:47:22 AM


 

Some of the agenda of US foreign policy was directed from Moscow in the old days. The de-nuking of some of the most crucial and reliable allies (such as Australia) never make any sense. If Americans can ever fix their country, then common sense may have a chance to return to US foreign policy.


The NTP makes sense because the further the nuclear arms race extended beyond the 5 major powers, the more likey there was to be a nuclear war. More fingers on the trigger means a greater likelyhood one will twitch. The US couldn't very well expect more potentially dangerous countries to tow the line if it didn't expect the same from it's allies.
 
Quote    Reply
1 2



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics