>>SFOD-D is not part of regular Army SF. We all know what SFOD-D means, but they are completely different than Army SF. Whereas Devgru has a similar mission set as regular SEALs, but are made up of the best/finest SEALs on the Teams. << First, there's no more similarity between DEVGRU and the larger SEAL community in terms of mission sets than there is between CAG and SF. All the SEAL types play in water a bunch, but beyond that common operating environment you're overstating SEAL/DEVGRU commonality (non-DEVGRU SEALs like to do that, parenthetically, so I'm not doubting you've seen someone, somewhere, making that argument . . .) and understating the commonality between CAG and SF. Secondly, DEVGRU is not part of the "regular Navy SEALs," it is simply recruited from them. >>As far as away own ops SF usually has their own small HQ in Afghan and Iraq that is seperate from the Seals so again I am sure that neither has a problem getting "Range Time" when on assignment.<< I missed this point in Boondock's previous post, but actually, SF chains of command tend to be in control of non-DEVGRU SEAL units in both countries. SEALs tend to lack adequate support, signal, MI, etc., assets to perform sustained operations so it's easier to OPCON them to SF Groups than it is to try and re-invent the wheel and find them adeqaute support echelons. >>I certainly didn't mean they have to share range time with each other, I simply mean't that the SEALs have superior shooting skills than most ODA's (probably outside of the DA ODA's)...because they spend more time outside/practicing on the range *ON AVERAGE*, but not always, though. << Most ODAs are considered DA teams, even in peacetime (but this varies by Group, etc.), and certainly now even the one's that may have had some other primary tasking have spun up on DA missions. Secondly, who told you SEALs get more range time than SF units?

Hello Horse soldier! Its nice to here from you. I did not understand GOP when he was talking about range time. That is why I did not get a chance to explain very well. I thought he meant at the training facilities whether here or abroad and their headquarters in other countries such as Aghan and Iraq Navy SEALS and SF usually have seperate training areas (RANGE etc...) All I was saying I doubt that SF has a problem getting range time and probably pends a lot of time there. I Have a question horsesoldier. Do you know the answer to the question I posted a couple of post ago about SF SCUBA.

Horse soldier- Here is that question -I know the difference between SF SCUBA and Seals is that SF SCUBA uses Scuba to get to there destination and AEALS can do that and do whole missions in the water but do you know what sort of ops Army SF Scuba teams have gone on or would go on?

>>Something's definitely not right on that.<< I seriously think I got a dud. The strap that isn't working is the shoulder straps (obviously the main straps), which won't hold. The problem with these straps is that the part that clips don't hold (kind of like lifejacket clips...not sure what you call these), and also the part that snaps on (I found it odd that a clip and snap is all that holds the shoulder straps together at the connection point) doesn't hold. Sorry, I probably am not using the correct terminology, but I hope you can understand what is wrong/what I am saying. I think that as a last resort, I will take it to a SuperTrooper or maybe a PX in my area to get them to take a look and see if they can help. If not, then I'll probably just find a fun way of destroying the thing (like filling it with fireworks and catching it on fire...or something similar :)

I realized my crappy argument here after it was posted it. We need a edit button. >>I missed this point in Boondock's previous post, but actually, SF chains of command tend to be in control of non-DEVGRU SEAL units in both countries. SEALs tend to lack adequate support, signal, MI, etc., assets to perform sustained operations so it's easier to OPCON them to SF Groups than it is to try and re-invent the wheel and find them adeqaute support echelons.<< Devgru might stay at SF HQ, but they aren't controlled by any SF personell (in fact, it works well...SF provides info, Devgru and SF are able to work together to attack the bad guys). The reason Devgru doesn't have any real ability to handle sustained ops is because they travel light. They want the ability to move their entire team into an area extremely fast and get out extremely fast. They weren't created for sustained combat, they were created as quick strike/DA experts...remember, they are completely different than SF (as you well know)...and they are perfectly capable of doing a dang good job equal to Delta, despite your spin (no offense) that they are a crappy outfit. >>Most ODAs are considered DA teams, even in peacetime (but this varies by Group, etc.), and certainly now even the one's that may have had some other primary tasking have spun up on DA missions.<< SEALs are also ALL DA teams (outside of the SDV teams)...so they are all very capable at DA...often moreso than SF. Alot of SEALs clear houses in excersises the "Delta/Devgru" way, where you have live bodies acting as hostages in a house with paper terrorists. Regardless of who is better (this varies from Platoon to Platoon...one SF ODA may be better than a SEAL squad at DA, and vice versa), SEALs are extremely capable of performing DA. Also, SEALs are experts at clearing ships/oil platforms... this is their realm and they are dang good at it. >>Secondly, who told you SEALs get more range time than SF units? << Hehehe, three guesses. A book (yep, another book...like I said, I have never been around a operator). In Dick Couch's Down Range, a SEAL team leader who's team was working very closely with SF said that SF was much better at intel and they knew the terrain and people better, but that his SEALs were better shooters. The funny thing is, that although we heavily disagree about units and you make it out that the SEALs aren't respected by the other SOCOM units...the SEALs and SF worked together and were very successful by working together. There might be these small divisions when back in the states, but when these guys work together, they respect each other very much.

>>The strap that isn't working is the shoulder straps (obviously the main straps), which won't hold. The problem with these straps is that the part that clips don't hold (kind of like lifejacket clips...not sure what you call these), and also the part that snaps on (I found it odd that a clip and snap is all that holds the shoulder straps together at the connection point) doesn't hold.<< The quick disconnects -- not where the shoulder strap goes onto the frame, but where the padded portion of the strap links up with the adjustable webbing, right?

In Dick Couch's Down Range, a SEAL team leader who's team was working very closely with SF said that SF was much better at intel and they knew the terrain and people better, but that his SEALs were better shooters<< say it ain't so, a book about SEAL's by a SEAL saying that army SF's are not in the same shooting league, that is the equivilent of saying these guy's have small dick's in as shooting is a Day one skill, especially in the SOF's area, that was a nice back handed compliment/bitchslap from the SEAL, "oh those army guy's are ok at tiding up the kitchen, but leave the man's work to us", at the level both of them play at, there is very little difference in shooting skill, ie you are either very good, or your gone, there is no almost good enough in this game.

Devgru might stay at SF HQ, but they aren't controlled by any SF personell (in fact, it works well...SF provides info, Devgru and SF are able to work together to attack the bad guys). The reason Devgru doesn't have any real ability to handle sustained ops is because they travel light. They want the ability to move their entire team into an area extremely fast and get out extremely fast. They weren't created for sustained combat, they were created as quick strike/DA experts...remember, they are completely different than SF (as you well know)...and they are perfectly capable of doing a dang good job equal to Delta, despite your spin (no offense) that they are a crappy outfit.<< DEVGRU is heavier then any normal SEAL team, they have their own helo's and their own armour, Pandur apc's like CAG have, plus I believe JSOC is almost alway's commanded by an Army General?,what DEVGRU can or can not do in relation to CAG is something you don't know, don't mean to be harsh, but there is a reason why CAG is the number 1 tier 1 unit, just like the SAS andSBS, size matter's and CAG can do thing's DEVGRU can't.

>>Devgru might stay at SF HQ, but they aren't controlled by any SF personell (in fact, it works well...SF provides info, Devgru and SF are able to work together to attack the bad guys). << Hold on -- you mis-read what I said. DEVGRU is a different issue (so is CAG -- both have JSOC to cover any limitations in their logistics, etc., situation). Non-DEVGRU SEAL units, however, usually fall under whichever SFG is running the CJSOTF in both Iraq and Afghanistan. >>In Dick Couch's Down Range, a SEAL team leader who's team was working very closely with SF said that SF was much better at intel and they knew the terrain and people better, but that his SEALs were better shooters.<< Couch is, well, a cheerleader for the SEALs (nothing especially wrong with that -- Robin Moore is pretty much the same thing for SF, and his books should be taken with an equally hefty dose of salt and such). I haven't read Downrange but I did read one of his other books (Warrior Elite something like that?) and thought it was pretty good except when he presented false information that was obvious enough that I caught it in the pre-USASOC phase of my military career . . . (if I remember right he completely misrepresents relative training time between SEALs and the various Army SOF units to try and make it sound like SEALs are superior -- for someone with Couch's background in the SOF community I have a hard time believing he made this error innocently). But, reality, I don't buy it. It is, as you've said, situational and such (different individuals and small units have different strengths and weaknesses), but I've heard one too many stories about SEALs doing very silly things with firearms (i.e. thinking they narrowly escaped death because they kept shooting the metal sling loops on the hood of a humvee accidentally because of bore-line/optics issues during a gun fight and thought the bad guys were lighting them up due to the bullets spalling off the loops right in front of them . . .) to be willing to give them any status as superior shooters. Again, you have variation from guy to guy and unit to unit, but the guy with the sling loop shooting issue was a SEAL and probably should not have been allowed to have a water pistol, much less an SR-25, in a gunfight. If that's the "superior" school of marksmanship, I should be dead four or five times over, given the amount of time I spend on ranges with SF guys. >>There might be these small divisions when back in the states, but when these guys work together, they respect each other very much.<< I don't know. In dealing with various USASOC guys (SF, 160th, the occasional Ranger) and AFSOC guys (aircrews and special tactics guys) I can't think of any kind words I've ever heard for the SEALs in the last three years. Now, I admit, I don't go around giving out questionaires or seeking everyone's opinions, but I can only think of one ODA (well, members thereof) who had what sounded like a positive working relationship with the SEALs they were working with in Afghanistan. Maybe one other guy had something neutral-to-positive to say, but mostly it's "don't be like the SEALs" and such . . .

but I've heard one too many stories about SEALs doing very silly things with firearms (i.e. thinking they narrowly escaped death because they kept shooting the metal sling loops on the hood of a humvee accidentally because of bore-line/optics issues during a gun fight and thought the bad guys were lighting them up due to the bullets spalling off the loops right in front of them . . .) to be willing to give them any status as superior shooters.<< your kidding?......that's keystone cop's level stuff.