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Subject: NAVY SEALS VS BRITISH SAS
LJ813    7/1/2005 9:34:17 PM
I WILL GO FOR THE NAVY..
 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       8/10/2010 6:34:45 PM
@ JTR.
 
I just simply don't believe that US Navy SEALs don't have the ability to march 30 miles with a 56 pnd. rucksack.
 
You say all this stuff like it requires some sort of divine fitness ability to achieve.
You don't realize that SEALs aren't recognized by their ability to march endlessly with impossible weight (Though if they were to set their minds to being the best at that then they could.)
 
SEALs are recognized worldwide by their ability to never give up.
 
They say that the Navy doesn't make SEALs, they just show up, and BUD/S is there to weed out the ones who aren't SEALs.
The mindset a SEAL has isn't one that can be learned, or taught for that matter.
It is one that is forged through a lifetime of facing adversity, overcoming it, and eventually realizing that nothing can stop you. You have no limits.
 
On the physical level, I know that SEALs would never give up. Yes, there are people out there that can beat them in a 30 mile march, or swim 10 miles quicker than they can. But they will never stop and say to themselves, "Schucks, I've been beat,
I might as well give up right now."
No, they keep going. They keep going because they are always aiming for excellence, yet, in their minds, they never really achieve excellence.
 
On the tactical level, yes, there may units out there that can clear every room, closet, and airduct in a hotel in less than 5 minutes.
 
I have no doubt that there are units out there better tactically and physically than the SEALs, no doubt at all.
 
SEALs aren't dumb, however. They are intelligent guys. And years of ingraining TTP's (Training, Tactics, and Procedures)
into them has it's results.
 
ST6 is widely considered the best CQB unit on the planet.
 
So, I have no lack of confidence in the SEALs tactical and physical ability.
Does that mean that I think that they are the best?
No.
 
Where my confidence stands is the SEALs ability to never give up, face every challenge with optimism, and to always strive for excellence.
 
Take a healthy, young, motivated and intelligent man with an attitude such as this and you may just have the best damn SOF outfit in the world.
;)
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/10/2010 6:51:26 PM


ST6 is widely considered the best CQB unit on the planet.


FFS
 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       8/10/2010 7:20:49 PM
@ JTR.
 
I just simply don't believe that US Navy SEALs don't have the ability to march 30 miles with a 56 pnd. rucksack.
 
You say all this stuff like it requires some sort of divine fitness ability to achieve.
You don't realize that SEALs aren't recognized by their ability to march endlessly with impossible weight (Though if they were to set their minds to being the best at that then they could.)
 
SEALs are recognized worldwide by their ability to never give up.
 
They say that the Navy doesn't make SEALs, they just show up, and BUD/S is there to weed out the ones who aren't SEALs.
The mindset a SEAL has isn't one that can be learned, or taught for that matter.
It is one that is forged through a lifetime of facing adversity, overcoming it, and eventually realizing that nothing can stop you. You have no limits.
 
On the physical level, I know that SEALs would never give up. Yes, there are people out there that can beat them in a 30 mile march, or swim 10 miles quicker than they can. But they will never stop and say to themselves, "Schucks, I've been beat,
I might as well give up right now."
No, they keep going. They keep going because they are always aiming for excellence, yet, in their minds, they never really achieve excellence.
 
On the tactical level, yes, there may units out there that can clear every room, closet, and airduct in a hotel in less than 5 minutes.
 
I have no doubt that there are units out there better tactically and physically than the SEALs, no doubt at all.
 
SEALs aren't dumb, however. They are intelligent guys. And years of ingraining TTP's (Training, Tactics, and Procedures)
into them has it's results.
 
ST6 is widely considered the best CQB unit on the planet.
 
So, I have no lack of confidence in the SEALs tactical and physical ability.
Does that mean that I think that they are the best?
No.
 
Where my confidence stands is the SEALs ability to never give up, face every challenge with optimism, and to always strive for excellence.
 
Take a healthy, young, motivated and intelligent man with an attitude such as this and you may just have the best damn SOF outfit in the world.
;)
 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       8/10/2010 8:01:31 PM


Take a healthy, young, motivated and intelligent man with an attitude such as this and you may just have the best damn SOF outfit in the world.

;)


have you actually met with or dealt with any other country SF's at a working level?
I can think of 23 countries that we train and work with who would have the same view of the capability of their respective SOF assets.
 
I can think of at least 6 countries with SF that are Tier 1 who are more than able to lay claim to the depth, breadth and ability of their respective SOF's
 
I can think of 3 countries who's SOF elements actually have a harder entry requirement than the SEALs.
 
this concept of which countries SF is "best" or superior is just errant nonsense.
 
eg the Poles, Norwegians and the Kiwis as smaller players have regularly done jobs that leave the bigger players with disproportionate respect.
 
measuring capability by the length of training is irrelevant -it's the quality of training.  The Kampfschwimmers for the Germans do water based training that makes most other SF elements reqs pale into relative insignificance - incl SEALs
 
its the maturity and competency of the individuals, coupled with the quality of the training that counts.  the rest is just fluff and nonsense.
 
I've yet to come across anyone who has done the job (not kids on the internet - ie real operators) who engage in the public "abbott and costello" type debate of who's better.
 
They all have confidence in their abilities - and some of them are a damn sight superior to the more loudly proclaimed "usuals" in how they go about their business.
 
again, The Poles (Grom), Kiwis, Kampfschwimmers, Norwegians are more than able to play and punch above the public hysterical debate about who's "best" - esp in their fields of expertise.
 
You'd be surprised at how much work the smaller SF elements from the less publicised countries get out and work.
 
Media presence does not demonstrate competency.  Access to the toys does not also a capable SF team make. 
 
The endstate is about craft.
 


 
 
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USN-MID       8/10/2010 11:40:50 PM

@ JTR.

 

I just simply don't believe that US Navy SEALs don't have the ability to march 30 miles with a 56 pnd. rucksack.

For people who aren't used to it, humping 30 miles is miserable enough slicked down to the bare essentials. I don't think it's a question of whether or not they CAN, it's a question of can they do it as well as career infantrymen (which is where SAS primarily draws from).
 
You say all this stuff like it requires some sort of divine fitness ability to achieve.

Divine, no. Specific conditioning, yes. You don't expect Michael Phelps to win the Boston Marathon do you? No doubt he'd do well. But win?
 
You don't realize that SEALs aren't recognized by their ability to march endlessly with impossible weight (Though if they were to set their minds to being the best at that then they could.)

Absolutely. They're amphibious raiders. SAS as a whole is not specifically designed to do that either. That's what the SBS is for. 
 
The mindset a SEAL has isn't one that can be learned, or taught for that matter.
It is one that is forged through a lifetime of facing adversity, overcoming it, and eventually realizing that nothing can stop you. You have no limits.

Now that's getting a bit ridiculous.

On the physical level, I know that SEALs would never give up. Yes, there are people out there that can beat them in a 30 mile march, or swim 10 miles quicker than they can. But they will never stop and say to themselves, "Schucks, I've been beat, I might as well give up right now." 
No, they keep going. They keep going because they are always aiming for excellence, yet, in their minds, they never really achieve excellence.

Not giving up is not the same as performing. A fat USAF UAV operator (not to pick on the Air Force) may put out to the best of his ability on his annual fitness test, but if his body is not conditioned, it will fail him.
 
On the tactical level, yes, there may units out there that can clear every room, closet, and airduct in a hotel in less than 5 minutes.
I have no doubt that there are units out there better tactically and physically than the SEALs, no doubt at all.
 
So where's the disagreement?

SEALs aren't dumb, however. They are intelligent guys. And years of ingraining TTP's (Training, Tactics, and Procedures) into them has it's results.
 
Every unit worth a shit trains SOPs, IADs, and TTPs.
 
ST6 is widely considered the best CQB unit on the planet.

DEVGRU is on another level. I'm not even sure what the UK equivalent is to the US Tier 1/"Black" units. You know any unit that weeds out applicants from Special Operations backgrounds is going to set new standards.

So, I have no lack of confidence in the SEALs tactical and physical ability.
Does that mean that I think that they are the best?
No.
Where my confidence stands is the SEALs ability to never give up, face every challenge with optimism, and to always strive for excellence.
Take a healthy, young, motivated and intelligent man with an attitude such as this and you may just have the best damn SOF outfit in the world.
;)
 
The problem is that there are plenty of healthy (and not always completely healthy) young motivated intelligent folks with never give up attitudes. That just gives you something to start with not an end product. Still plenty of potential to screw it up along the way.
 


 
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USN-MID       8/10/2010 11:56:04 PM

@ JTR.

 

I just simply don't believe that US Navy SEALs don't have the ability to march 30 miles with a 56 pnd. rucksack.

For people who aren't used to it, humping 30 miles is miserable enough slicked down to the bare essentials. I don't think it's a question of whether or not they CAN, it's a question of can they do it as well as career infantrymen (which is where SAS primarily draws from).
 
You say all this stuff like it requires some sort of divine fitness ability to achieve.

Divine, no. Specific conditioning, yes. You don't expect Michael Phelps to win the Boston Marathon do you? No doubt he'd do well. But win?
 
You don't realize that SEALs aren't recognized by their ability to march endlessly with impossible weight (Though if they were to set their minds to being the best at that then they could.)

Absolutely. They're amphibious raiders. SAS as a whole is not specifically designed to do that either. That's what the SBS is for. 
 
The mindset a SEAL has isn't one that can be learned, or taught for that matter.
It is one that is forged through a lifetime of facing adversity, overcoming it, and eventually realizing that nothing can stop you. You have no limits.

Now that's getting a bit ridiculous.

On the physical level, I know that SEALs would never give up. Yes, there are people out there that can beat them in a 30 mile march, or swim 10 miles quicker than they can. But they will never stop and say to themselves, "Schucks, I've been beat, I might as well give up right now." 
No, they keep going. They keep going because they are always aiming for excellence, yet, in their minds, they never really achieve excellence.

Not giving up is not the same as performing. A fat USAF UAV operator (not to pick on the Air Force) may put out to the best of his ability on his annual fitness test, but if his body is not conditioned, it will fail him.
 
On the tactical level, yes, there may units out there that can clear every room, closet, and airduct in a hotel in less than 5 minutes.
I have no doubt that there are units out there better tactically and physically than the SEALs, no doubt at all.
 
So where's the disagreement?

SEALs aren't dumb, however. They are intelligent guys. And years of ingraining TTP's (Training, Tactics, and Procedures) into them has it's results.
 
Every unit worth a shit trains SOPs, IADs, and TTPs.
 
ST6 is widely considered the best CQB unit on the planet.

DEVGRU is on another level. I'm not even sure what the UK equivalent is to the US Tier 1/"Black" units. You know any unit that weeds out applicants from Special Operations backgrounds is going to set new standards.

So, I have no lack of confidence in the SEALs tactical and physical ability.
Does that mean that I think that they are the best?
No.
Where my confidence stands is the SEALs ability to never give up, face every challenge with optimism, and to always strive for excellence.
Take a healthy, young, motivated and intelligent man with an attitude such as this and you may just have the best damn SOF outfit in the world.
;)
 
The problem is that there are plenty of healthy (and not always completely healthy) young motivated intelligent folks with never give up attitudes. That just gives you something to start with not an end product. Still plenty of potential to screw it up along the way.
 


 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       8/11/2010 7:57:10 PM
I'm not talking about requirements guys, I'm talking about the operator.
 
You can take any amount of experience, (SAS) or brute strength, (US Army) and have them complete missions that are meant for them.
 
But think about what the SEALs do: Night drop into the ocean, boat to the coast (Swim, if they are aiming for added secrecy.) Disembark, traverse terrain (This means marching, with gear that can weigh anywhere from 40-70+ pounds.) reach the target area, complete target mission.
 
You already know that these SEALs are being sent to a place where a force the size of a Marine Company or other conventional force either can't reach undetected, or don't have the neccessary skills to be sent to.
 
(That means in enemy territory, usually far from friendly forces.)
 
Most SEAL missions have a timeline that they must adhere to. This means limited sleep, maybe even no sleep at all..
These SEALs must have the tenacity to deal with the rigors of operating in enemy held terrain. Sometimes this terrain can be relentless. (Afghanistan)
 
I'm not saying other SOF's don't do this kind of shit. I'm saying that the SEALs are my favorite, simply because their never-ending, advanced training turns a guy with the SEAL type of attitude into a very competent warrior that can complete these missions with amazing success.
 
And yes, the training is never-ending and unforgiving.
 
The only easy day was yesterday.
 
 
 
 
 
 
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albywan       8/11/2010 8:01:29 PM

I'm not talking about requirements guys, I'm talking about the operator.

 

You can take any amount of experience, (SAS) or brute strength, (US Army) and have them complete missions that are meant for them.

 

But think about what the SEALs do: Night drop into the ocean, boat to the coast (Swim, if they are aiming for added secrecy.) Disembark, traverse terrain (This means marching, with gear that can weigh anywhere from 40-70+ pounds.) reach the target area, complete target mission.

 

You already know that these SEALs are being sent to a place where a force the size of a Marine Company or other conventional force either can't reach undetected, or don't have the neccessary skills to be sent to.

 

(That means in enemy territory, usually far from friendly forces.)

 

Most SEAL missions have a timeline that they must adhere to. This means limited sleep, maybe even no sleep at all..

These SEALs must have the tenacity to deal with the rigors of operating in enemy held terrain. Sometimes this terrain can be relentless. (Afghanistan)

 

I'm not saying other SOF's don't do this kind of shit. I'm saying that the SEALs are my favorite, simply because their never-ending, advanced training turns a guy with the SEAL type of attitude into a very competent warrior that can complete these missions with amazing success.

 

And yes, the training is never-ending and unforgiving.

 

The only easy day was yesterday.

 

 

 

 

 


So by that logic, Cuban refugees would also qualify as the best SF operators....
 
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gf0012-aust       8/11/2010 9:22:45 PM

I'm not talking about requirements guys, I'm talking about the operator.

what foreign specwarries have you ever dealt with? 

You can take any amount of experience, (SAS) or brute strength, (US Army) and have them complete missions that are meant for them.

they all do it within the scope of the mission requirements.  there is nothing special in the above statement 

But think about what the SEALs do: Night drop into the ocean, boat to the coast (Swim, if they are aiming for added secrecy.) Disembark, traverse terrain (This means marching, with gear that can weigh anywhere from 40-70+ pounds.) reach the target area, complete target mission.

and you are desciribing  a tasking that any number of other SF communities do - albeit with the media promotion.  The SEALs don't engage in this silliness  either - they are a victim of the media - quite frankly the few that I know are comprehensively embarassed about the volume of  wank that goes on about them - esp when some of it is clear fancifull commentary and has no relationship to what they actually do.

You already know that these SEALs are being sent to a place where a force the size of a Marine Company or other conventional force either can't reach undetected, or don't have the neccessary skills to be sent to.

and some of us know that there are a number of other SF communities tasked by their respective countries that do exactly the same kind of work but without the jingoistic media commentary that ascribes them skills and capability which can and is often skewed 

(That means in enemy territory, usually far from friendly forces.)

 WTF do you think GROM, NZSAS etc are doing?

Most SEAL missions have a timeline that they must adhere to. This means limited sleep, maybe even no sleep at all..

and how is this different from any other SF mission set which is planned to the nth degree?
 
These SEALs must have the tenacity to deal with the rigors of operating in enemy held terrain. Sometimes this terrain can be relentless. (Afghanistan)

 how many other SF communities are in the ghan?  I'll give you a hint - more than 5.  and they are all in situations where the defenders are violent and don't subscribe to nation state codes of military conduct

I'm not saying other SOF's don't do this kind of shit. I'm saying that the SEALs are my favorite, simply because their never-ending, advanced training turns a guy with the SEAL type of attitude into a very competent warrior that can complete these missions with amazing success.

again, what do you think other specwarries from other countries are doing?  HTF would you know the success rate?  It's not even declared for obvious reasons.  and bugger all of the successes are announced for the same reasons

And yes, the training is never-ending and unforgiving.

 which is about the most accurate thing that can be fallen back on



 
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YOUGOTYOURASSKICKED       8/12/2010 4:37:50 AM
You are all reacting as though I just said that SEALs are the only good SOF on the planet.
 
If you go back up and read my text you can actually see that I say "My favorite"
 
Yes, I know that any and every country with a military worth it's salt will have a good SOF.
 
And I don't claim to know anything about these other country's SOF's.
 
However, I do consider myself a SEAL expert, and when it comes to SEALs I know the attitude that they all have.
 
Previously mentioned perseverance and determination to name a couple.
 
I know that there are other brilliant units out there. But, I mean, c'mon, with the SEAL type of attitude what can you do wrong?
 
This is exactly why I think SEALs are one of the best, if not the best SOF's in the world.
 
It's that simple.
 
So let's close this thread up, knowing that each side has made fair points of it's own. And respecting that, realize that they are all so damn good, it's pretty difficult to be the best.
 
We're pretty much taking the most driven, competent, and competitive guys on the planet and throwing them at eachother when we start arguing about this bullshit.
 
 
 
 
 
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