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Subject: Royal Navy??
NotUkOnly    3/10/2007 1:16:02 PM
So Guys where are we at these days with T45, Cvf, Fsc, Submarine force and the future size and make up of the RN?? I get confused with all the Information/Misinformation these days :(
 
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Donkey       3/10/2007 2:30:01 PM
How could you possibly get confused....it's all perfectly clear....
 
T45 to be 6 hulls, though may only be 4, but will find out septemberish if  7&8 to be ordered, which of course may end up as 5&6.
 
CVF is to be ordered, as soon as the price is fixed, unless it's cancelled first.
 
FSC was cancelled.
 
SSN is to be 8 boats, may only be 3 astutes, or 5 or maybe 7.
 
SSBN to be replaced with maybe 3 boats, or 4, with reduced warheads or maybe the same number.
 
Escort number fixed at 25, or maybe 23 or as low as 17.
 
Major surface fleet of 40+hulls, or 35.
]
Now please tell me where your confusion lies!!!
 
 
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RM-Nod       3/11/2007 8:44:56 AM

FSC was cancelled.
 

Oh no no no no no, it’s far simpler than that! Take a deep breath…

 

You see FSC was cancelled but handed over to another MoD group who carried on its studies and turned it into the global cruiser and global corvette concepts which were going well until they were cancelled in favour of the Medium Sized Vessel Derivative and the Versatile Surface Combat which looked good until they were cancelled in favour of where we are now with the Sustained Surface Combatant Capability programme or S2C2 for short which has come up with a new plan to produce three separate classes of ship to replace the T22s and T23s with these being a Force Anti-Submarine Warfare Combatant known as C1 a Stabilisation Combatant or C2 and an Ocean-Capable Patrol Vessel or C3 but all of these are still just proposals and have yet to be turned into actual policy which may or may not happen soon or in the future.

 

Easy!
 
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Armchair Private       3/11/2007 9:18:17 AM

How could you possibly get confused....it's all perfectly clear....

 

T45 to be 6 hulls, though may only be 4, but will find out septemberish if  7&8 to be ordered, which of course may end up as 5&6.

 

CVF is to be ordered, as soon as the price is fixed, unless it's cancelled first.

 

FSC was cancelled.

 

SSN is to be 8 boats, may only be 3 astutes, or 5 or maybe 7.

 

SSBN to be replaced with maybe 3 boats, or 4, with reduced warheads or maybe the same number.

 

Escort number fixed at 25, or maybe 23 or as low as 17.

 

Major surface fleet of 40+hulls, or 35.

]

Now please tell me where your confusion lies!!!

 


That's actually a pretty useful summary!
Pretty depressing for those of us who believe that it might actually be a good idea for an island nation to have some sea power... I heard someone saying that with just in time delivery in supermarkets etc if supply chains were cut with some sort of blockade, and including panic buying, shops would be out of food inside of several hours, most people have roughly a weeks worth of food in their freezer fridge and cupboard... after that we starve I suppose. I have no idea whether that worrying scenario is accurate or not.  
 
It's not all too bad though, we appear to be maintaining the ability to produce more of these things at least for the next decade-ish. Think about it this way, the US has roughly 10 times our GDP and spends more than 10 times what we do on defense, they have what? 11 carrier groups now? With two CVF, 4/6 T45s ,Trafalger, Astute, and the T22 and T23, in bang for your buck terms that's around 1/10th of USN sea power. Maybe a bit more?
 
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Padfoot       3/12/2007 6:15:20 AM




How could you possibly get confused....it's all perfectly clear....



 



T45 to be 6 hulls, though may only be 4, but will find out septemberish if  7&8 to be ordered, which of course may end up as 5&6.



 



CVF is to be ordered, as soon as the price is fixed, unless it's cancelled first.



 



FSC was cancelled.



 



SSN is to be 8 boats, may only be 3 astutes, or 5 or maybe 7.



 



SSBN to be replaced with maybe 3 boats, or 4, with reduced warheads or maybe the same number.



 



Escort number fixed at 25, or maybe 23 or as low as 17.



 



Major surface fleet of 40+hulls, or 35.



]



Now please tell me where your confusion lies!!!



 




That's actually a pretty useful summary!

Pretty depressing for those of us who believe that it might actually be a good idea for an island nation to have some sea power... I heard someone saying that with just in time delivery in supermarkets etc if supply chains were cut with some sort of blockade, and including panic buying, shops would be out of food inside of several hours, most people have roughly a weeks worth of food in their freezer fridge and cupboard... after that we starve I suppose. I have no idea whether that worrying scenario is accurate or not.  

 

It's not all too bad though, we appear to be maintaining the ability to produce more of these things at least for the next decade-ish. Think about it this way, the US has roughly 10 times our GDP and spends more than 10 times what we do on defense, they have what? 11 carrier groups now? With two CVF, 4/6 T45s ,Trafalger, Astute, and the T22 and T23, in bang for your buck terms that's around 1/10th of USN sea power. Maybe a bit more?

Interesting, but who on earth might blockade Britain? Our ancient enemies are our very good friends these days.
 
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french stratege       3/12/2007 9:34:37 AM
Title
I heard someone saying that with just in time delivery in supermarkets etc if supply chains were cut with some sort of blockade, and including panic buying, shops would be out of food inside of several hours, most people have roughly a weeks worth of food in their freezer fridge and cupboard... after that we starve I suppose. I have no idea whether that worrying scenario is accurate or not.  
Don't invent an imaginary threat.
Only an European nation with dozens of modern subs could expect to do blockade of UK if it controls continental EU countries.Quite unlikely today!
An attack on EU shipping would led to a full NATO response which have hundreds of destroyers/frigates already.And moreover UK can be supply by tunnel under channel.
UK has also a SSN fleet which is its more potent tools to hunt subs or surface fleet.
UK need only 2 REAL carriers, a sufficient number of top SSN (8 to 10) , the minimum number of destroyers/frigates  for two carriers and an amphibious/resupply group (so probably 14 destroyers/frigates: 6 AA and 8 ASW to get 12="*4 available) and some presence ships for fishing/piratery/smuggling and to show the flag (light frigates).
This are real needs.
 
 
 
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Armchair Private       3/12/2007 3:29:43 PM


Title
I heard someone saying that with just in time delivery in supermarkets etc if supply chains were cut with some sort of blockade, and including panic buying, shops would be out of food inside of several hours, most people have roughly a weeks worth of food in their freezer fridge and cupboard... after that we starve I suppose. I have no idea whether that worrying scenario is accurate or not.  


Don't invent an imaginary threat.

Only an European nation with dozens of modern subs could expect to do blockade of UK if it controls continental EU countries.Quite unlikely today!

An attack on EU shipping would led to a full NATO response which have hundreds of destroyers/frigates already.And moreover UK can be supply by tunnel under channel.

UK has also a SSN fleet which is its more potent tools to hunt subs or surface fleet.

UK need only 2 REAL carriers, a sufficient number of top SSN (8 to 10) , the minimum number of destroyers/frigates  for two carriers and an amphibious/resupply group (so probably 14 destroyers/frigates: 6 AA and 8 ASW to get 12="*4 available) and some presence ships for fishing/piratery/smuggling and to show the flag (light frigates).

This are real needs.

 

 


True.
 
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perfectgeneral    Two Carriers?   3/13/2007 2:07:37 AM
The six AA destroyers and eight ASW frigates follow on from the requirement for two carriers, but why two? Why not one, none or four? Carriers create there own requirement. They are political tools that project power to the extent of political requirement. Should the requirement be for three carriers at some future date, then three more AA destroyers and four more ASW frigates might be required. A minimum is set by the level required to maintain a naval shipyard industry (both surface and subsurface). We have to build seven SSN and three SSBN to keep the industry intact. I have no idea what the minimum surface fleet is, but I'm sure that it is less than current planned production.
 
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Donkey       3/13/2007 3:21:44 PM

The six AA destroyers and eight ASW frigates follow on from the requirement for two carriers, but why two? Why not one, none or four? Carriers create there own requirement. They are political tools that project power to the extent of political requirement. Should the requirement be for three carriers at some future date, then three more AA destroyers and four more ASW frigates might be required. A minimum is set by the level required to maintain a naval shipyard industry (both surface and subsurface). We have to build seven SSN and three SSBN to keep the industry intact. I have no idea what the minimum surface fleet is, but I'm sure that it is less than current planned production.

Current planned production of surface escorts is only 6 (maybe 8) Type 45's, no frigate replacementas yet.
Minimum surface escorts should be enough to escort the 2 carriers+an amphibious task force+2 left over.  Don't forget that our carriers will be unarmed except for phalanx (maybe RAM) & the same goes for the assualt ships.....escorts may not be cheap, but whats the price of losing a carrier?
 
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