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Subject: Litvenenko
cosmonaut    5/23/2007 4:48:06 PM
Putting political bias aside, if one is able to, quite obviously Litvenenko deserved to die, and got what was coming to him. Can you imagine a former American, British, or Israeli agent being "permitted" to defect and spill their beans? And endanger their former colleagues? Never. Those counties would have terminated the threat in a heartbeat.
 
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VelocityVector       5/23/2007 5:20:38 PM
Arguably the Israelis are the most ruthless of the countries you mentioned.  So answer me this:  Mordechai Vanunu -- assassinated or captured?  Executed or imprisoned?

v^2
 
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flamingknives       5/23/2007 5:30:34 PM
I think a few British and US agents did defect and plenty more have criticised their respective governments, without being chased down and murdered. If western govenments behaved like the Russians seem to, there would be many more dead journalists

Even if, and I stress the if, Litvenenko deserved to die, how it was down was downright reckless.

I don't believe that he was doing anything that was a risk to anything worth keeping hold of. Violence is the first resort of the incompetant?
 
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cosmonaut    Israeli    5/24/2007 1:40:41 AM
To describe them as ruthless is probably overly harsh;  with so many enemies, Israel does not have the luxury of putting to chance such a severe compromise to state security as Litvenenko respresented to Russia.  And though the State of Israel's methods would be of such sophistication and thoroughness that their execution could be described as brutal or cold, in reality, the sought after result is simply one of efficiency and finality.  Anything else is dangerously humane.  Dispassionate duty rules the day in such issues.

That, with a straight face, a country like Israel can lobby so hard for Johnny Pollard's release from U.S. prison, but argues so staunchly for maintaining Mordechai Vanunu's suffocating detention, is really a good example of the diametrics one finds in politics.
 
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flamingknives       5/24/2007 5:05:07 AM
From what I know of Litvinenko, he seemed to be concentrating on the behaviour of politicians. I don't see what was such a threat to Russia's national security. Explain please.
 
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cosmonaut       5/24/2007 2:48:17 PM
flaming knives:

safe to assume that "what you know" is not what "is the case"  -  no offense intended.  do you really think his liquidation was the result of a petty disagreement of some kind?  by radioactive isotope, no less?  seriously now.  let's have a real discussion, not play games.  
 
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Yimmy       5/24/2007 3:03:37 PM
Let's not forget that he had ample time to say whatever information he had before he was eventually killed.
 
As to if he "deserved to die", that may have been a legitimate question when we were deciding as to whether we would "take him in", or not.  However once his foot was in the door he was our responsibility.
 
We should have been far harder on Russia in response.  I would have loved to see MI6 snatch the culprit, rather than our ask for Russia to give him to us, to face the obvious refusal and denial.
 
 
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flamingknives       5/24/2007 3:27:31 PM
Undoubtedly "what I know" is not the entirity of "what is the case". Hence my request for an explanation.

I consider how understanding the Communists were about "petty disagreements", how many ex-communists are still walking the halls of power in Moscow, and that the Russian government not long ago passed a law permitting the arbitrary execution of its nationals abroad for, and I forget the exact wording, making defamatory comments about the Russian state. I really would believe that his murder was linked to these "petty disagreements" and that the use of radioactive materials was to make it obvious who had commissioned the murder.

Other than these "petty disagreements", what was the cause?
 
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Armchair Private       5/24/2007 3:29:45 PM

Let's not forget that he had ample time to say whatever information he had before he was eventually killed.

 

As to if he "deserved to die", that may have been a legitimate question when we were deciding as to whether we would "take him in", or not.  However once his foot was in the door he was our responsibility.

 

We should have been far harder on Russia in response.  I would have loved to see MI6 snatch the culprit, rather than our ask for Russia to give him to us, to face the obvious refusal and denial.

 

me too.

 
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cosmonaut       5/24/2007 11:48:53 PM
As a former Russian spy, someone entrusted with vital state security details, Litvenenko showed exceptionally poor judgment in defecting so loudly.  You want to undermine the hand that fed you?  Do it discretely.

Where was the outcry when Vanunu was drugged and smuggled back into Israel by Mossad from a foreign country?
 
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flamingknives       5/25/2007 8:54:53 AM
As I understand it, kidnap, trial and imprisonment is not as bad as murdering your subject in a manner that recklessly endangers the lives of those around him.

Maybe it isn't that way round in Russia.

Still, Vanunu was technically an Israeli at the time of his arrest/kidnap, while I understand that Litvinenko had acquired British Nationality.
 
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