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Subject: SA-80 article
gf0012-aust    10/8/2007 1:29:06 AM
Bear in mind that this is from the Guardian - but can anyone comment on the accuracy of the article? --------------------- Off target British troops are poised to go to war in Iraq. But after 30 years of development, £470m of taxpayers' money and countless modifications, soldiers still don't trust their standard issue rifle - the SA80. How did the military get something so simple so spectacularly wrong? James Meek unravels a shameful saga of arrogance, incompetence and indecision Thursday October 10, 2002 The Guardian In 1985, in the United States, a firm called Microsoft came up with a gimmicky piece of software called Windows, said to be easier to use for non-specialists, as if the masses were going to start keeping computers at home. In Finland - Finland! - a former paper company, Nokia, was pursuing its insane dream of the masses buying portable personal telephony devices. Britain's 1985 design ideas were more sensible. Such as Clive Sinclair's personal transporter, the C5, a quiet, low-slung electric car, made out of white plastic - cheap, simple, modern transit for the masses. Or the Royal Ordnance Factories' personal assault rifle, the SA80, a compact, accurate gun, made out of pressed steel and green plastic - cheap, simple, modern weaponry for the masses. Article continues -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- On October 2, the day of the launch of the rifle, the Royal Small Arms Factory in Enfield, north London, was en fête. All the gun people were there: generals, defence correspondents and foreign military attaches. Gary Gavin, a 26-year-old sergeant in the Worcestershire and Sherwood Foresters, was the first to swap his old SLR rifle for the new SA80. General Colin Shortis, the army's director of infantry at the time, said: "We are delighted with the SA80 - a really good weapon." The ceremony went well. It seemed like a good day for the army, and for Enfield's engineers and designers. British soldiers were soon to be given the world's most advanced gun, made - and designed - in Britain. The ceremony was a facade. The gun was not ready, either to be made or used. The public never learned - and, to this day, has not learned in full - what was going on behind the scenes as the weapon came into service: how the designers at Enfield had failed to grasp the difficulties of making a cheap, mass-produced gun using new technology, how seriously the Thatcher administration's determination to privatise the Royal Ordnance threatened the ability of British soldiers to fight, and how the Ministry of Defence failed to test the production version of the weapon in realistic conditions before accepting it into service. Today, the latest modifications to the gun may have made it an adequate rifle, but it is hard to see how soldiers' confidence in the weapon can ever recover from the blunders of the past. How those blunders came about is a story that goes back half a century. It is a story of the decline of British engineering, the sacrifice of skills for political and financial gain, a complacent cold war military bureaucracy, and Britain's role as America's subservient ally in Europe. As originally issued, the SA80 couldn't be fired from the left shoulder (it still can't), making it dangerous to fire from corners and doorways. The firing pins broke, the magazine fell off, the bolt-release button broke, the triggers got stuck, the cleaning kit wouldn't clean, the butt plate broke, the cheek-pad fell off, the cheek-pad melted, the cartridge cases wouldn't eject properly, the bolt carrier didn't fit properly, the locking pins holding the gun together were inadequate, and the safety catch wasn't safe. "I think - had it ever gone into serious combat in the early days - it would very quickly have been abandoned and replaced with a [foreign] rifle," one senior former executive says. Military folk expect teething troubles with new weapons. They don't expect still to be having them more than 15 years later. One officer involved in trials of the gun in the 1980s says it should never have been rushed into service in the way it was. "It takes a lot of guts for someone to stand up and put their career on the line and say: 'I'm sorry, it's not ready, I'm going to stop it.'" Nobody found that courage. In the dining room of a large house in Essex, looking out through French windows on to an immaculate lawn, a heavy-set man takes a grubby J-cloth out of a bag and unfolds it on the table. Fat brass cartridge cases of different sizes, with copper-jacketed bullets sticking out of them, roll around inside. It is live ammunition, although the man, a former military armourer, promises that he has them legally. Pointing to the rounds in turn, he delivers a 20th-century history lesson - here is the ammunition Britain used in two world wars, here is th
 
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bob the brit       10/9/2007 2:38:40 PM
now now gf0012-aust, the MOD did tell us all it was the "best" assault rifle on the market, even better than the G36. surely that counts for something .
 
i know a number of issued A2's have been "personally modified".... and by that i mean the plastic cocking handle has been replaced with a metal one (who know's why???)
also not the kindest weapon for lefty's like myself (i invite you to fire off a few bursts from the left shoulder, see how you feel)
i'm personally confused when it was said to be around until 2015 and then possibly replaced by the G36, which the MoD said was an inferior weapon.
oh and after GW a number of complaints arose about the tip of the firing pin breaking off
finally we must not forget that the SLR had its faults too (they just weren't as stupid)
 
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doggtag    something familiar about this...   10/9/2007 2:47:20 PM
...Is it just me,
or does this sound a lot like many of the complaints, arguments, debates, and other concerns over the US' current battle rifles, the M16 and M4?
 
 
 
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bob the brit       10/9/2007 9:21:21 PM
it is possible, after all no rifle is perfect (except my favorite number 4 mark 1, absolute beauty) and there are only certain things that can go wrong with a rifle so a problem in one likely crops up in a few others aswell.
 
the majority of changes from L85A1 to L85A2 were internal. in fact the only external change i notice is the cocking handle going from a post (A1) to a kind of aposthrophe/comma shaped one (A2),
the A1 had a number of rather silly deficiencies though (too many really)
for example there was no form of guard for the mag release and many a squaddy was said to be caught picking up scattered rounds on the ground. i thnk they fixed this though while still in the A1 designation. also the firing pin iron metal was too brittle (hence the ends breaking off as i mentioned earlier), and other sort of problems that you expect a company like enfield to spot from the onset.
in my opinion however, it's accuracy was very good with nice groupings at the end of the range (can't remember my best five round groupings but quite impressive)
i definitely think there is an improvement in the overall mechanics of the A2, the moveables such as the cartridge extractor and ejector, breech block and bolt, seem to cause less problems than before, although figures are not something i have, just mine and other's opinion.
i am curious... would anyone be able to tell me the estimated or average burnout time for the barrel of the A2?
 
 
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Herald1234    Maybe we should just accept the obvious....   10/9/2007 9:57:40 PM
That it takes STEEL to make a good assault rifle, and we just have to grunt it up and deal with a 5 kg+ rifle made out of gunmetal. 
 
The idea that you can take a hunk of plastic,aluminum, and a thin steel tube; one second, and bash some contemptible jihadi's brains out with the butt end, and then shoot his superstition befuddled, and drug-crazed fellow would-be terrorists with something that weighs 3 kilograms or less is ludricrous.
 
I know mass is a soldier issue, but isn't there some where else you can trade off weight, besides the rifle; or is the rifle the single most tiring object a soldier lugs around?  
 
Herald
 
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Yimmy       10/10/2007 10:54:45 AM

Herald - The SA-80 does weigh 5 kg's.

Bob - The A2 upgrade did not replace the barrel on the rifle (just the LSW).

 

The A2 is a perfectly good assault rifle, as far as 556 rifles go.

 
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bob the brit       10/10/2007 11:36:54 AM

Herald - The SA-80 does weigh 5 kg's.


Bob - The A2 upgrade did not replace the barrel on the rifle (just the LSW).


 


The A2 is a perfectly good assault rifle, as far as 556 rifles go.




i know, but i didn't know the burnout time for the A1 either so i asked for the A2 (meant both of them)
 
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FJV       10/10/2007 1:20:00 PM
For what it's worth here's another article on the gun:
"http://www.cybershooters.org/sa80.htm"



 
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Ehran       10/10/2007 1:31:48 PM

That it takes STEEL to make a good assault rifle, and we just have to grunt it up and deal with a 5 kg+ rifle made out of gunmetal. 

 

The idea that you can take a hunk of plastic,aluminum, and a thin steel tube; one second, and bash some contemptible jihadi's brains out with the butt end, and then shoot his superstition befuddled, and drug-crazed fellow would-be terrorists with something that weighs 3 kilograms or less is ludricrous.

 

I know mass is a soldier issue, but isn't there some where else you can trade off weight, besides the rifle; or is the rifle the single most tiring object a soldier lugs around?  

 

Herald


think you are right on this one herald.  a friend of mine was telling me about one of the guys in his training platoon demolishing his rifle.  big strapping laddy managed to destroy both the dummy and his rifle on the bayonet course.
 
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Bluewings12       10/10/2007 4:15:21 PM
""That it takes STEEL to make a good assault rifle, and we just have to grunt it up and deal with a 5 kg+ rifle made out of gunmetal.""

I disagree (not because it is Herald but because it is a false idea)
Some "composite" assault rifles are great to use , even in the long run . Two comes to mind :
The Austrian Steyr AUG Bullpup :
h*tp://www.remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/edit/augsof.htm
and the French FAMAS :
h*tp://www.gunsworld.com/french/famas_us.html

These are just great . They are robust , reliable in the long run , easy to handle (especially the FAMAS for the left handed) and they are very accurate when used properly . The Steyr has an overall better punch but it moves rapidly toward the "2 O'clock" when used in short bursts (worse in full auto) while the FAMAS only "vibrates" .
My favorites AG so far .

The SA80 could have been a good rifle but never was .

""
The firing pins broke, the magazine fell off, the bolt-release button broke, the triggers got stuck, the cleaning kit wouldn't clean, the butt plate broke, the cheek-pad fell off, the cheek-pad melted, the cartridge cases wouldn't eject properly, the bolt carrier didn't fit properly, the locking pins holding the gun together were inadequate, and the safety catch wasn't safe. "I think - had it ever gone into serious combat in the early days - it would very quickly have been abandoned and replaced with a [foreign] rifle," one senior former executive says.""

That is well exagerated ! For sure , it would have been replaced but no SA80 ever had all those faults in a single rifle !
From what I heard recently , the rifle is now doing OK . It is now an OK rifle .
I would rather have an M16 (if I don 't have a FAMAS or a Steyr) .

Cheers .
 
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Herald1234    Small Army best rifle possible.   10/10/2007 10:01:21 PM
Possible Candidate.

Expensive but consider what you had..

Get the best you can afford.

And notice that it weighs a little less than 4 kilograms in its basic model?

Herald     

 
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