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Subject: Su-37 vs. F-22
TankFREAK    11/3/2005 5:39:49 PM
Which do you think is better? The F-22 has stealth features (not completely stealth) and the Su-37 has super-maunverability on it's side (front canards+thrust vectoring). No doubt if there was no stealth and it was an actual dog fight, the Su-37 would undoubtly win. But how effective the F-22's stealth is not completely verified. IMO, i would say that the Su-37 'Terminator' is better, as it has supermanuverability (it can perform the world-reknowned kulbit, which is basically doing a somersault within it's own length). If we knew more about how effective the stealth is on the F-22, i might sway my decision, but at least for the time being, i say the Su-37 is better. What's your take on this?
 
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PaintBox       11/21/2011 12:32:56 AM
Actually, the F-22 can perform the Kulbit as well.
 
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gibbsrg       8/24/2012 2:58:06 PM
I'm glad to see that somebody else realizes that what's good for airshows isn't necessarily the best thing for combat.  I certainly wouldn't want to be in a situation where, after doing a maneuver that basically slows my airspeed to almost zero, have to regain all that energy.  Dogfights aren't necessarily going to be 1-on-1  Doing a cobra may get you away from one attacker only to make you a sitting duck for his wingman because you have no energy left.  Plus the new WVR missiles can do the maneuvering the plane once had to do.  Not even the SU can out-maneuver the other pilots head(helmet aimed dogfight missiles).  First shot is more important now than most maneuverable in my opinion.  And first shot goes to who detects the other first.  I wonder who that will be..lol  The f22 will try to end the fight long b4 things get to a merge.
 
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HeavyD       8/24/2012 8:52:52 PM
It should be clear to everyone by now that sex sells.  Whether you are pedaling deoderant, cola, tanks or fighters, sex sells.
 
Supermaneuverability is sexy - but completely unproven to be of any tactical advantage in actual combat.  However the people signing the purchase orders are NEVER the guys flying the missions.  Ain't that a shame?
 
 
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Reactive       8/26/2012 7:09:12 AM

  The F-22 is agile as a side-effect of its high-altitude, high-speed mission profile, the fact it can dogfight well is neither here-nor-there and it certainly wasn't developed with this as a primary consideration.
 
TVC might be useful for dogfighting but it is also useful for minimising energy-loss in high-altitude supersonic turns, for general fuel economy, for fuel-efficient supercruise and to enable it to avoid use of control surfaces which are a radar-return consideration. 
 
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gibbsrg       8/26/2012 12:36:57 PM
We're not saying thrust vectoring isn't useful.  We're questioning the value of some of those fancy airshow manuevers in real combat.  Most of those moves slow your airspeed to almost nothing.  All that energy has to be regained from scratch.  Do you want to be in a plane that's floating in midair looking cute while someone is lining you up in their sights?  Sure, the plane that was chasing you may have been dodged, but what about the other planes in the merge? How often is air combat one-on-one?  Do you really want to pull a cobra in a multiple-boogie situation?
 
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45-Shooter       9/15/2012 1:01:32 AM
Just plaid cards with some old friends from the Peace Sun days, one of which was at red flag a year or two ago and his comment about "Super maneuverability" was about a guy in a Harrier, which to anyone with half a brain has several times the super maneuverability of any of the big Su-3Xs.
Radio call; "Guns, Guns, Guns...." Starting at 2,000 M until range equals 200 M, before pulling the plug and stick. Missed the Mid-Air by 10-12 M!
Found the Harrier Jocky in the O Club Bar twitching and bitching about some bloke who buzzed him at close range while he was using VIFF to change directions and cause the overshoot. He was buying drinks for his ground crew who had to cleen the Fecces out of the seat.
My comment on that is if "Super Maneuveribility" can't save a Harrier, how the heck can it help a plane twice as large, four times as heavy and 1/2 as agile?
 
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