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Subject: Best All-Around Fighter of World War II
sentinel28a    10/13/2009 3:38:03 PM
Let's try a non-controversial topic, shall we? (Heh heh.) I'll submit the P-51 for consideration. BW and FS, if you come on here and say that the Rafale was the best fighter of WWII, I am going to fly over to France and personally beat you senseless with Obama's ego. (However, feel free to talk about the D.520.)
 
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oldbutnotwise       4/26/2013 7:46:30 AM
Because you made the claim after those charts were posted on this board that prove me right! The Spit aileron roll reversal argument! Look up those posts! They were very definitive! The only first line plane on the planet that was slower rolling than the early Spitfire at speeds over 250 MPH is the Early Zero! So yes, you have to post the reports because there were posted here before and they prove my claim! Not yours!
 
shooter how do you explain that MkIs and MKIIs with fabric ailerons could out roll a Me109 at low and high speed?
and thats before they got the metal ailerons, once they got those the 109 never got close, and thats withouyt the need to power operate the control as per late model P38s 
in fact only the me109E's vs a MKI/II did the 109 ever outroll a Spit, the MkV onwards all outrolled the 109, yet the 109 outrolled a P38!
 
shooter your facts dont fly 
 
Its amazing how you can compaire aircraft from different times and come up with conclusions that you apply to the whole series, especially when you choose the best of one against the worst of another, anyone would think you had an agenda in your posts
 
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45-Shooter       4/26/2013 11:39:06 AM

I knew you would get it completely wrong foolish one. That is why I phrased it the way I did.
Second hint. LIFT. 
THIS CHART IS IT! Unfortunately, I was not able to start with the LOS as far above the muzzle as in real life, so I set the Zero range at 800 yards, not 856 witch would yield a Point blank range of 1000 yards. Point blank range defined as that length of trajectory from the muzzle at which the trajectory never rises above or falls below the vertical dimension of the target when the LOS is centered on the target, IE, the height of the fuselage.
Just to make matters worse for your argument, I assumed a 360 MPH launch, IE "headwind", speed and a 300 MPH target speed. 
Absolute rubbish. Hint: BULLET DROP, one called shooter. You claim to know ballistics, "what is the bullet drop of a fifty caliber bullet in a 200 knot headwind at 1000 meters?"



























































































Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 2910 -0.5 0 0 13351 0
100 2852 15.88 2.3 0.11 12824 0.61
200 2795 27.98 8.89 0.21 12316 1.15
300 2740 35.59 19.96 0.32 11836 2.05
400 2685 38.56 35.68 0.43 11366 3.33
500 2631 36.69 56.23 0.54 10913 5
600 2578 29.77 81.83 0.66 10478 7.06
700 2525 17.62 112.67 0.78 10052 9.52
800 2473 0 148.97 0.9 9642 12.4
900 2422 -23.3 190.96 1.02 9248 15.71
1000 2372 -52.53 238.87 1.15 8871 19.47










 
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45-Shooter       4/26/2013 11:50:40 AM


 Until you post such figures for a MkV or IX or XIV then I will KNOW your ignorant
See above! Continued in part two after the break! 
 

 
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Maratabc       4/26/2013 11:58:01 AM
You are a liar.
 
Source the calculator you used 

I knew you would get it completely wrong foolish one. That is why I phrased it the way I did.

Second hint. LIFT. 

THIS CHART IS IT! Unfortunately, I was not able to start with the LOS as far above the muzzle as in real life, so I set the Zero range at 800 yards, not 856 witch would yield a Point blank range of 1000 yards. Point blank range defined as that length of trajectory from the muzzle at which the trajectory never rises above or falls below the vertical dimension of the target when the LOS is centered on the target, IE, the height of the fuselage.
Just to make matters worse for your argument, I assumed a 360 MPH launch, IE "headwind", speed and a 300 MPH target speed. 


Absolute rubbish. Hint: BULLET DROP, one called shooter. You claim to know ballistics, "what is the bullet drop of a fifty caliber bullet in a 200 knot headwind at 1000 meters?"











































































































































































































RangeVelocityImpactDropToFEnergyDrift
02910-0.500133510
100285215.882.30.11128240.61
200279527.988.890.21123161.15
300274035.5919.960.32118362.05
400268538.5635.680.43113663.33
500263136.6956.230.54109135
600257829.7781.830.66104787.06
700252517.62112.670.78100529.52
80024730148.970.9964212.4
9002422-23.3190.961.02924815.71
10002372-52.53238.871.15887119.47















 
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Maratabc       4/26/2013 12:07:48 PM
Here is help, liar.
  You see, the conditions are transitory and  change from second to second in a three dimensional turning fight, as the wind direction changes as the two planes turn around each other. The bullet will move up down sideways as the plane changes direction up down sideways etc. 
 
Any chart you generate must account for these dynamic changes. Your chart does not. It is for a static condition.
 
Therefore, you are proved a LIAR.
 
 
 
 
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45-Shooter       4/26/2013 2:22:46 PM


so the Spit is much less likely to survive.
   
At longer ranges, the Spit sees the -38 coming and turns into the attack, but then it becomes a head on pass! Something the Spit is unlikely to survive!
The Spit aileron roll reversal argument! Look up those posts! They were very definitive! The only first line plane on the planet that was slower rolling than the early Spitfire at speeds over 250 MPH is the Early Zero! So yes, you have to post the reports because there were posted here before and they prove my claim! Not yours!



 
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45-Shooter    Link to Ballistic calc posted.   4/26/2013 2:30:28 PM


 
 
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45-Shooter    Link to Ballistic calc posted.   4/26/2013 3:02:45 PM
http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=3814f295
 
  You see, the conditions are transitory and  change from second to second in a three dimensional turning fight, None of which matters in a head on pass! as the wind direction changes as the two planes turn around each other. The bullet will move up down sideways as the plane changes direction up down sideways etc. Your logic is terribly flawed from so many points. First they are machine guns shooting >14 bullets per second. Second the dispersion is 15" at 600 yards which completely voids your wind/correolis effect ideas, since the first bullet is 7" high followed a split second later by one 7" low, and or wide. Thirdly, if we are in a turning fight, the range is limited by the Angle of Attack the shooter can pull to shoot across the inside of the circle, thus cutting the corner, or must be turning tighter than the target, not something likely with the Spit. So at typical speeds of 300 MPH/134.17 Meters/S which yields a turn radius of almost exactly 300 M, means the range at 15 degrees AoA is under 100 Meters! How much is the wind going to move a 710 grain .50 Caliber bullet inside 100 Meters? RIGHT! But on the other hand, IF I'd flown the elbow and tracked, then shot from outside the target's circle of maneuver, in my own larger circle of maneuver, the range could be as much as 4-600 Meters, or more importantly less than 50 Meters!!!!
Any chart you generate must account for these dynamic changes. Your chart does not. It is for a static condition.
See above, to learn of your silly mistakes. According to your link above, the bullet will move some inches at 500 Meters, but the target is several feet tall, either side of the point of aim and a dozen feet or so past the bust's outer edges end to end! So, you see all of your arguments are fallacious!
 



 
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Maratabc       4/26/2013 3:04:20 PM
Absolute nonsense... how did the devious one put it? Not worth response. 
 
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Maratabc       4/26/2013 3:06:55 PM
As the plane TURNS it creates bullet dispersion, itself, one called shooter. Wind just aggravates.
Absolute nonsense... how did the devious one put it? Not worth response. 

 
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