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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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french stratege       11/17/2009 6:34:28 PM
When I says LO, I means LO and VLO
"Against a LO target (a la Rafale/SH)"
For a 30 km seeker against a 1m² target, a 0,1 m² target means that missile seeker has a 17 km detection range which add still 13 km on datalink guidance.
And for F22, the 30 km seeker acquisition distance would fell to 5 km.
Second Rafale is quite different to SH in this matter.
SH has a LO RCS but missile will still detect it at 16 km or lower due to jamming effect, while its towed jammer will try to deceive missile in final part
Rafale use a jammer whom purpose is not only protection but reducing or masking plane to ennemy long range radar or seekers and missile would have much more difficutlies to acquire it at 16.
In a sense Spectra philosophy is more to reduce by 2 or 3 a radar range so be a 8 to 81 supplementary of RCS reduction.
 
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french stratege       11/17/2009 7:44:49 PM
What is interesting in the comment of Peter Collins is
"The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."
When you put this remark in perspective with the fact that P Collins is a British test pilot who have participated 4 years in preliminary F35 studies, and still in the British aerospace business community, it became interesting.
Rafale: passive location and tracking, passive BVR missiles, active stealthiness, full datafusion.
 
82 delivered today, 180 ordered.
I guess that except USA, France have few to fear in air combat today.
 
 
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MK       11/17/2009 8:57:59 PM

and you have the picture . Here , France (Snecma) is having a problem . The M88-4 rated for 9 or even 9.5 tons will not be ready for production before 2013-14 and Dassault is looking at some possible new air intakes to increase the thrust even further (10 tons) . If the M88-4 is ready in time , the actual Rafale 's intakes will indeed do the job nicely for very heavy loads like :

with 4 Micas on top . The UAE even talked about carrying 4 Apaches cruise missiles and possible conformal fuel tanks (already tested) .


In very hot and dry conditions , the UAE already know that the actual Rafale does the job , but they want more .

I have heard enough BS about the Rafale lacking thrust (?) , which is completly wrong :



How do you arrive at the conclusion that there would be a M88-4 version anytime soon? The M88-3 was to be ~100 kg heavier and it was stated that Dassault had new intakes ready, but the M88-3 got canceled and Snecma pursued the M88-2ECO instead. It might be that Snecma manages to increase the thrust without increasing the airflow so much, this would enable the intake to remain unchanged. The fact that more life or thrust is on the table in fact indicates that operating temperature might be the selected way of gaining more thrust without increasing the airflow. 
 
Anyway the Rafale could need more thrust in heavy configurations, that's were it lacks behint. Why? While the current engines provide the Rafale with a quite good TWR at NTOW in typical AA configurations its high payload brings its TOW at strike configurations in the range of other fighters which have more powerful engines, as they are often larger and heavier (empty weight wise). It's this area where the Rafale could have problems, particularly if it is meant to use 4 Scalp/Apache + CFTs.
 
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jackjack       11/17/2009 11:19:53 PM

What is interesting in the comment of Peter Collins is

"The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale."

When you put this remark in perspective with the fact that P Collins is a British test pilot who have participated 4 years in preliminary F35 studies, and still in the British aerospace business community, it became interesting.

Rafale: passive location and tracking, passive BVR missiles, active stealthiness, full datafusion.

 

82 delivered today, 180 ordered.

I guess that except USA, France have few to fear in air combat today.

 


wow, all this without even scatching the surface.... he said
"I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities."
 
heck i'm sold on his evaluation of its war fighting capabilities

 
 
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jackjack       11/17/2009 11:25:29 PM
ps
i dont know why gov's spend months or even years aqnd thousand of maqn-hours evaluationg a competition..
why dont they just give peter 1 1/2 hour joy ride in each ? it will be much cheaper http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" alt="" />
 
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jackjack       11/17/2009 11:29:33 PM
thick fingers, try again
 
i dont know why gov's spend months or even years and thousand of man-hours evaluating a competition..
why dont they just give peter 1 1/2 hour joy ride in each ? it will be much cheaper http://www.strategypage.com/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Images/emwink.gif" />
 
 
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sentinel28a       11/18/2009 12:10:05 AM
Heck, if Dassault gave me a free ride in a Rafale, I'd tell everybody it was made with UFO technology and that the F-22 was the Rafale's bitch on CNN.  I'd even kiss BW's butt atop the Eiffel Tower and give him an hour and a half to draw a crowd.
 
But I'm easily pleased.
 
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gf0012-aust       11/18/2009 1:18:01 AM

When you put this remark in perspective with the fact that P Collins is a British test pilot who have participated 4 years in preliminary F35 studies, and still in the British aerospace business community, it became interesting.
I've already pointed out why this is a nonsensical claim - but again - ignoring all my previous as I have no desire to repeat rinse and wash all the time.

he has not flown any near peers
he left the service in 93
his last ride was a harrier
his most significant ride was via sepecat and airshow movers via the red arrows

where in any of his flying hours in the last 15 years has he flown any comparable generationally equiv asset?

Ans = NONE

I suspect that he is a bit embarassed by his claims as blind freddy can see that he is no position to make such grand claims - irrespective of whatever his colourful past and service has been - making claims like that requires empirical evidence. he has NONE




 
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One Five Five Echo       11/18/2009 3:43:18 AM
Rafale use a jammer whom purpose is not only protection but reducing or masking plane to ennemy long range radar or seekers
 
Really?  How does that work?  Is this part of that 3D signature management thing you mentioned before?
 
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Bluewings12       11/18/2009 2:15:08 PM
MK :
""How do you arrive at the conclusion that there would be a M88-4 version anytime soon?""
 
1: because they have to  , 2: because they can
I know that I tend to simplify the equation but I believe in them . Whatever tech they use , maybe higher temperatures as you said , Snecma 's people are racing right now . Maybe the new engine will not be called  "-4 " but who cares .
 
""Anyway the Rafale could need more thrust in heavy configurations, that's were it lacks behint.""
 
The first sentence is correct , the second one is not . As an exemple , do you think that a SH with a similar heavy load than a Rafale has more thrust available at any altitude ? The answer is no and the answer is still the same with the Mig-35 or with any F-16 . The SU-30 , SU-35 and the F-15K are a wee bit better in high altitude than the Rafale when heavily loaded , but the Rafale is on the par at low and medium altitude .
The Rafale doesn "lack behind" , as you say . Of course , a 9 or even 9,5 tons thrust engine would give better performance but as it stands and for the FAF and MN , the actual Rafale 's thrust fit the needs and fill the bill .
 
Cheers .
 
 
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