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Subject: UK Pilot flight test the Rafale F3
Bluewings12    11/9/2009 1:57:05 PM
By Peter Collins : Chapter 1 , the aircraft : "Most advanced Allied air forces now have operational fleets of fourth-generation fighters (defined by attributes such as being fly-by-wire, highly unstable, highly agile, net-centric, multi-weapon and multi-role assets). These Western types include the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG. The Boeing F-15E and Lockheed Martin F-16 have an older heritage, but their latest upgrades give them similar multi-role mission capabilities. Of the above group, only the Super Hornet and Rafale M are capable of aircraft-carrier operations. As these fourth-generation fighters' weapons, sensor systems and net-centric capabilities mature, the likelihood of export orders for such an operationally proven package becomes much more realistic. On behalf of Flight International, I became the first UK test pilot to evaluate the Rafale in its current F3 production standard, applicable to aircraft for both French air force and French navy frontline squadrons. The "proof-of-concept" Rafale A first flew in 1986 as an aerodynamic study, leading to the programme's formal launch two years later. The slightly smaller single-seat Rafale C01 and two-seat B01 for the French air force and single-seat M01 and M02 prototypes for the navy flew from 1991. The first production-standard Rafale flew in 1998, and entered service with the navy's 12F squadron at Landivisiau in 2004 in the F1 (air-to-air) standard. Deliveries of the air force's B- and C-model aircraft started in 2006 in the F2 standard, dubbed "omnirole" by Dassault. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, which adds reconnaissance pod integration and MBDA's ASMP-A nuclear weapon capability. All aircraft delivered in earlier production standards will be brought up to the F3 configuration over the next two years. The French forces plan to purchase 294 Rafales: 234 for the air force and 60 for the navy. Their Rafales are set to replace seven legacy fighter types, and will remain as France's principal combat aircraft until at least 2040. To date, about 70 Rafales have been delivered, with a current production rate of 12 a year. Rafale components and airframe sections are built at various Dassault facilities across France and assembled near Bordeaux, but maintained in design and engineering configuration "lockstep" using the virtual reality, Dassault-patented Catia database also used on the company's Falcon 7X business jet. Rafale software upgrades are scheduled to take place every two years, a complete set of new-generation sensors is set for 2012 and a full mid-life upgrade is planned for 2020 SUPERB PERFORMANCE The Rafale was always designed as an aircraft capable of any air-to-ground, reconnaissance or nuclear strike mission, but retaining superb air-to-air performance and capabilities. Air force and navy examples have made three fully operational deployments to Afghanistan since 2005, giving the French forces unparalleled combat and logistical experience. The commitments have also proved the aircraft's net-centric capabilities within the co-ordination required by coalition air forces and the command and control environment when delivering air support services to ground forces. Six Rafale Ms recently carried out a major joint exercise with the US Navy from the deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The air force's B/C fighters have 80% commonality with the navy's Rafale M model, the main differences being the latter's navalised landing gear, arrestor hook and some fuselage longitudinal strengthening. Overall, the M is about 300kg (661lb) heavier than the B, and has 13 hardpoints, against the 14 found on air force examples. Dassault describes the Rafale as omnirole rather than multirole. This is derived from the wide variety of air-to-ground and air-to-air weapons, sensor pods and fuel tank combinations it can carry; the optimisation of aircraft materials and construction; and the full authority digital FBW controlling a highly agile (very aerodynamically unstable) platform. This also gives the aircraft a massive centre of gravity range and allows for a huge combination of different mission stores to be carried, including the asymmetric loading of heavy stores, both laterally and longitudinally. Other attributes include the wide range of smart and discrete sensors developed for the aircraft, and the way that the vast array of received information is "data fused" by a powerful central computer to reduce pilot workload when presented in the head-down, head-level and head-up displays. The Rafale is designed for day or night covert low-level penetration, and can carry a maximum of 9.5t of external ordinance, equal to the much larger F-15E. With a basic empty weight of 10.3t, an internal fuel capacity of 4.7t and a maximum take-off weight of 24.5t, the Rafale can lift 140% of additional lo
 
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Bluewings12       11/10/2009 4:13:49 PM
Hamilcar :
""All the threat receiver recorded was the slant angle and bearing from signal transmitter second to second as aspect changed to receiver aircraft.""
 
Which is enough to slew a TV cam on it .
The pilot might have changed the zoom factor feature but the TV was already on it . It worked the same way than when using the RBE2 onto high flying airliners :"At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us"
 
""It was the pilot who SAW through the camera wth his eyes and compared to the ground the vector of the Mirage who concluded that the plane flew low to the ground.""
 
This is your version of the fact , not Peter Collins 's . I know who to trust . Btw , I don 't know where you read that in the article ...
 
""Its obvious mistakes like this that separate serious discussion from wild eyed advocacy and shows just exactly why a discussion on the Rafale is difficult. Lack of understanding of the simplest concepts reduces everything to a  lengythu discussion of why a wrong statement is a wrong statement""
 
My personal and unprofessional knowledge brings more light than your never ending bias and bashing .
 
Cheers .
 
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       11/10/2009 4:50:48 PM
Another thing very important in my view is the agility , acceleration and dogfighting capabilities of the Dassault fighter .
The jet is probably one of the best if not the best right now in this regard .
Peter Collins is only repeating what many others have said before him :
Coming
""Later in the sortie at the lower fuel weight of 2t and 500kt, with the DFCS Stores Position set to air-to-air, the aircraft was pulled rapidly and effortlessly through to +9g and could be held there over a significant speed range.""
""A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s and the force of acceleration hurting my spine as I was pressed backwards against the ejection seat.""
""The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.""
""The aircraft can be flown in a "bang-bang" manner between axes, rather than requiring "rolling pulls". The Rafale is an outstanding close-in dogfighter whenever it wants to be.""
 
Coming from an ex Red Arrows Leader , it is telling .
Then , the IR Mica 's specs (IRST and high gimble angle) gives the Rafale an outstanding off boresight capability and a decisive edge even against the F-22 .
Look at this picture :
 
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6164/f22rafale.jpg" />

The F-22 missiles are stored in a pitch black bay , no LOBL possible and you need 3 to 6 seconds to fire a missile from closed bays , depending on the situation at hand . Same with the F-35 unless both aircraft are flying bays open during dogfights which will reduce the"shoot" time but the IR seekers will still be blind . The RCS is obviously irrelevant in such situation , bays open or not .
The Rafale IR missile seekers are in the open and can lock anytime and the missile(s) can be fired in a split second .
End game .
In a closing dogfight , a late Flanker is far more dangerous than a US stealth platform ...
Yet , the Rafale has been made to kill it .
 
Cheers .
 
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Hamilcar       11/10/2009 5:04:17 PM

Hamilcar :


""All the threat receiver recorded was the slant angle and bearing from signal transmitter second to second as aspect changed to receiver aircraft.""

 

Which is enough to slew a TV cam on it .


The pilot might have changed the zoom factor feature but the TV was already on it . It worked the same way than when using the RBE2 onto high flying airliners :"At the same time, with both of us completely head-in and on TF autopilot, Nino locked up and the FSO TV identified airliners 10,000ft above us"

Here is a clue. A pilot learns about clouds. Rgar is an aerial terrain feature. He clearns an altitide referent from that feature as many clouds by their shapes  and common meteorological characteristics allow altitide estoimation with the naked eye by looking at the clouds as a referent.  
""It was the pilot who SAW through the camera wth his eyes and compared to the ground the vector of the Mirage who concluded that the plane flew low to the ground.""

This is your version of the fact , not Peter Collins 's . I know who to trust . Btw , I don 't know where you read that in the article ...

That is Peter Goon's method for estimation and is implicit in the quote. He did not say that the device gave a range estimate. ge said it showed him a magnification of airliners 10,000 feet above him. Since there was more one airliner, HE estimated the altitide not the machine and gave a general value. Got that?
 
""Its obvious mistakes like this that separate serious discussion from wild eyed advocacy and shows just exactly why a discussion on the Rafale is difficult. Lack of understanding of the simplest concepts reduces everything to a  lengythu discussion of why a wrong statement is a wrong statement""

My personal and unprofessional knowledge brings more light than your never ending bias and bashing .
 
Shows a total lack of knowledge of how pilots actually work, as well as how the machines they fly.work as well. 
 

Precision is second nature to a pilot: hence Colln's comment that the RBE2 specifically failed to positively track the Mirage 2000 at ranges beyond 30 nautical miles in decent radar conditions is ASTONISHING. He gives a specific device generated number to a specific target and says so plainly so that the devoice and the range are both inderstood to be linked. That confirms what has long been suspected about that piece of junk RBE2 in PRINT from a source that you provided.^1 
 
He did not do that for the optical devices he used. He said that he saw magniufued views of airliners 10,000 feet above him, which could also be air traffic control assigned commercial  altitudes that he knew from experience.
 
Now I would like to thank you for once again giving me the opportunity to show what the Rafale really did, and for finally providing an open source that shows what  the radar defects of that bird's RBE2  IS. 
 
30 nautical miles before a positive fighter sized track......No wonder the Mica is so short ranged!
 

 
 
 
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gf0012-aust       11/10/2009 5:10:10 PM
""The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.""

the last combat aircraft that he flew was in 93 - and was a Harrier.

Coming from an ex Red Arrows Leader , it is telling . 

4 post previously you said he was a Blue Angel

Then , the IR Mica 's specs (IRST and high gimble angle) gives the Rafale an outstanding off boresight capability and a decisive edge even against the F-22 .

based on what - the french admit that the PESA (you need systems not weapons in isolation as part of the acquisition and firing loop) is 40% slower than AESA


The F-22 missiles are stored in a pitch black bay , no LOBL possible and you need 3 to 6 seconds to fire a missile from closed bays , depending on the situation at hand . Same with the F-35 unless both aircraft are flying bays open during dogfights which will reduce the"shoot" time but the IR seekers will still be blind . The RCS is obviously irrelevant in such situation , bays open or not .

The Rafale IR missile seekers are in the open and can lock anytime and the missile(s) can be fired in a split second .

for goodness sake man, do you understand anything as to what other reasons why bays are recessed?  pause and think.  this is just schoolboy commentary - make the effort to understand principles forst.


In a closing dogfight , a late Flanker is far more dangerous than a US stealth platform ...

Yet , the Rafale has been made to kill it .

you do understand that the principle is to close the gap before detection, that the primary shooter doesn't have to be illuminated as its partner is doing the acquiring and hand off, and that LO means that you can dicate the fight through other systems.

btw, seeing that the principle threats are russian aircraft or derivatives, and that the US has had far more assets ever involved in actually killing same  - then I reckon that they might have a real handle and real data on doing the job

again.  Collins exited the service in 93.  he has not flown peer aircraft or contemp aircraft - and with the greatest respect to prior hours, making comments about any platform sans experience in seating and driving contemporarys is just editorial sophistry.

make the effort to understand rather than fan clubbing and misunderstanding basic concepts
 
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Hamilcar       11/10/2009 5:19:53 PM

Another thing very important in my view is the agility , acceleration and dogfighting capabilities of the Dassault fighter .

The jet is probably one of the best if not the best right now in this regard .


Peter Collins is only repeating what many others have said before him :

Coming



""Later in the sortie at the lower fuel weight of 2t and 500kt, with the DFCS Stores Position set to air-to-air, the aircraft was pulled rapidly and effortlessly through to +9g and could be held there over a significant speed range.""


""A final level acceleration from 200-500kt in full afterburner at 5,000ft and 1.8t fuel weight can only be described as brutal, with the aircraft increasing speed at about 30kt/s and the force of acceleration hurting my spine as I was pressed backwards against the ejection seat.""


""The steady state roll rate at 350kt was 270°/s and the roll onset felt rapid but comfortable. At 450kt, the same steady-state roll rate was achieved, but the rate of roll onset was simply staggering. I have never experienced any fighter aircraft start or stop to roll so quickly.""


""The aircraft can be flown in a "bang-bang" manner between axes, rather than requiring "rolling pulls". The Rafale is an outstanding close-in dogfighter whenever it wants to be.""

 

Coming from an ex Red Arrows Leader , it is telling .


Then , the IR Mica 's specs (IRST and high gimble angle) gives the Rafale an outstanding off boresight capability and a decisive edge even against the F-22 .


Look at this picture :

 

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6164/f22rafale.jpg" />





The F-22 missiles are stored in a pitch black bay , no LOBL possible and you need 3 to 6 seconds to fire a missile from closed bays , depending on the situation at hand . Same with the F-35 unless both aircraft are flying bays open during dogfights which will reduce the"shoot" time but the IR seekers will still be blind . The RCS is obviously irrelevant in such situation , bays open or not .

The Rafale IR missile seekers are in the open and can lock anytime and the missile(s) can be fired in a split second .


End game .

In a closing dogfight , a late Flanker is far more dangerous than a US stealth platform ...


Yet , the Rafale has been made to kill it .


 

Cheers .







Altitude kills. Speed kills. Radar first look kills.
 
Energy advantage kills. 
 
While the myopic Rafale strains to see a Flanker it is already being chased by Russian Archers and Adders (RADAR). This is not a joust. Its a energy war among multiple platforms, with the Sukhois holding all the electronic warfare and energy maneuver BVR advantages. He, the Sukhoi, can choose when to launch and run or as the French are wont to say: "use contempt of engagement" or as an American would say "exercise decision initiative".
 
The Rafale is not competitive until it gets its radar and weapons integration into the 21st Century. At BEST it could just barely match a Sukhoi in the merge, with the Sukhoi  knowing the Rafale's vector before the obverse is true. 
   
It is not in the same league as a Typhoon or a Eagle as part of an integrated air force as concerns this.
 
 
 
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Bluewings12       11/10/2009 5:39:44 PM
For cry out loud Hamilcar , re-read what you just posted !
Nothing holds water , nothing ! I mean a-b-s-o-l-u-t-l-y nothing !
You want me to loose my time answering your bulls ? I just did for the past 4 years .
 
gf , you walk the same path than Hamilcar . It leads nowhere . Yes , I don 't have the same "diplomacy" than MK but the idea is the same : proof the truth .
You said :
""the last combat aircraft that he flew was in 93 - and was a Harrier.""
 
Maybe but he flew almost any type of F-teens , Tornados , Hawks , Mirages , Alpha jets , Harriers and God knows what else . Did you ? Any of us did ? I don 't think so ...
 
""4 post previously you said he was a Blue Angel""

No . I knew that he was a British pilot and an ex Red Arrows Leader . I only asked posters here (mostly Americans) to make the "link" and think twice before bashing an excellent pilot . This is why I took the Blue Angels as a reference .

""Then , the IR Mica 's specs (IRST and high gimble angle) gives the Rafale an outstanding off boresight capability and a decisive edge even against the F-22 .
based on what - the french admit that the PESA (you need systems not weapons in isolation as part of the acquisition and firing loop) is 40% slower than AESA""
 
??? I am talking about the Mica 's IR seeker and you respond to me with radar technology ? In dogfights a fast radar is obviously a bonus (RBE2 IS fast) but a IR lock is even better (the missile can chase behind you after launch) .

""for goodness sake man, do you understand anything as to what other reasons why bays are recessed?  pause and think.  this is just schoolboy commentary - make the effort to understand principles forst.""
 
I understand that it is a bad move if you have to go dogfight . Period gf .
 
""you do understand that the principle is to close the gap before detection, that the primary shooter doesn't have to be illuminated as its partner is doing the acquiring and hand off, and that LO means that you can dicate the fight through other systems.""
 
Of course I do understand but don 't change topic . If you have to fly over enemy territory , you are bound to face a close incoming opposite fighter anytime . Few Mig-29s have been shotdown WVR during the Kosovo Campaign ...
 
Cheers .

 
 
 
 
 
 
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french stratege       11/10/2009 5:47:16 PM
While the myopic Rafale strains to see a Flanker it is already being chased by Russian Archers and Adders (RADAR). This is not a joust. Its a energy war among multiple platforms, with the Sukhois holding all the electronic warfare and energy maneuver BVR advantages.
The Rafale is far to be myopic: Flanker has no similar ESM suit with precise bearing and similar data fusion until now, its RCS is giant compare to Rafale and even a Rafale PESA has already first look as British DERA aknowledged in its Rafale PESA simulation (which was clearly biased favoring Eurofighter) which give 1:1 kill ratio between a SU35 and a Rafale.
But now Rafale has AESA with a 50% better range..
And Rafale has also the Spectra to reduce by Flanker Radar range.
SU 30 MKI were provided an Israeli ECM suit (which show that those of Russian were not that nice ) and when you know that Spectra is head and shoulder above anything Israelis has...LOL
Moreover datafusion allow triangulation with ESM.
Flanker is not a problem for a Rafale.
The only question is that Rafale is correct vs a F22 or a Pakfa.
And I have already answered probably.
 
 
 
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Bluewings12    Question to Sysops   11/10/2009 5:47:58 PM
Do you actually pay Herald (Hamilcar) to keep me on my toes to "inflate" the post counts to make money with your adverts or something like that ?
Honestly ?
 
Cheers .
 
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gf0012-aust       11/10/2009 5:55:48 PM

gf , you walk the same path than Hamilcar . It leads nowhere . Yes , I don 't have the same "diplomacy" than MK but the idea is the same : proof the truth .

nope, I have no problems with having rational discussions with people like FS and MK because they will discuss on point - and even when I disagree with their position we will understand and discuss from positions of knowledge.  you don't come remotely close to MK in understanding these issues.  don't pretend to be something or to have competency in areas that you visibly and repeatedly have been shown not to

Maybe but he flew almost any type of F-teens , Tornados , Hawks , Mirages , Alpha jets , Harriers and God knows what else . Did you ? Any of us did ? I don 't think so ...

 what bit of logic do you not comprehend.  he has not flown against any peer or contemporary aircraft and yest there is extrapolation?  that is just editorial sophistry.  its something that can't be ignored.
??? I am talking about the Mica 's IR seeker and you respond to me with radar technology ? In dogfights a fast radar is obviously a bonus (RBE2 IS fast) but a IR lock is even better (the missile can chase behind you after launch) .

because its a systems response - what don't you get about systems sympathy?   detect - shoot in its most basic contruct.  detect early and you get to dictate if you have systems advantage.  weapons alone do not provide systems advantage.

I understand that it is a bad move if you have to go dogfight . Period gf .

 what?  so now you are going to blithely ignore all the other vectors and systems that operate before you shoot?  unbelievable.  its not biggles.  its a complex process and you are dumbing it down to absolutes to try and support an untenable positon


Of course I do understand but don 't change topic . If you have to fly over enemy territory , you are bound to face a close incoming opposite fighter anytime . Few Mig-29s have been shotdown WVR during the Kosovo Campaign ...

 It''s not changing topic, what you spectacularly do again is ignore the complexity of how combat works, of how systems work and try to dumb it down to a level that is acceptable for simple solutions but ignores reality.

make the effort and stop pretending to know what you're on about - you clearly do not








 




 

 

 

 


 
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Bluewings12    Question to Sysops   11/10/2009 5:58:26 PM
FS :
""The only question is that Rafale is correct vs a F22 or a Pakfa.""
 
Good question but wrong comment . In BVR , the Rafale only has its ECMs to counter the F-22 . The Meteor will give the fighter more range but the problem is still the same : put a radar lock on the F-22 .
Sure Spectra can be a decisive factor in some situation but the F-22 still enjoys the edge BVR .
The Pakfa is an unknown quantity .
 
Cheers .
 
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