How to judge what the best fighter plane is?

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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter 1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM

I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.

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45-Shooter 1/30/2013 6:40:33 PM

to the ignorant, such as you proved to be.

Separation, extension, break, and reverse are terms you would NOT know the true meaning of.

That looks like four to me? How are "Separation and Extension" different from each other and how do they relate to Guns ACM?

Those who can read can SEE what I know.

Just because you can lift four words out of some one elses work, does not prove you know what they mean, or how to use them.
S.

I was just asking if you knew the three most important deffense Vs guns tactics of WW-II or not?
Well do you? Apearently not???

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45-Shooter 1/30/2013 6:43:15 PM

OBNW understood IMMEDIATELY what I meant when I noted that. Apparently you were too ignorant to understand the simple CONCEPT and difference. It's these simple things that trip you up.

How does your failure to answer the questions below trip me up?

The orginial point was that the example Shooter used (that of a conventional standard car engine) was invalid and a better comparison would be a F1 engine but then he started with incorrect statements about that and so on and so on (keep going till you reach old age or your fingers drop off)

it irratates me when he passes his opinion or assumption off as factual 9especially when it would only take 30 seconds to look it up)

It would be nice if you would explain why a modern car engine is not equivilant to an antique aircraft engine?
Just a few points to concider;

1. My Dodge Intrepid 3.5 has 252 HP from a V-6 with 96 MM bore. That is 0.580 HP/Cm^2 and 3518 CCM.

2. A common inline engine of the time that was expected to last over 400 hours in a comertial plane made 685 HP in the Last Kestral-V from 12 127 MM Bores for 0.451 HP/CM^2 and 21,240 CCM.

3. Given that may of these old Dodges are still running with many more than 100,000 miles on them, some with very hard use paterns like my two with 126,000 and 185,000 makes my point! PS. The SFC of that engine at full chat is 0.326.

Can you name any aero-engine from WW-II that would last 2-3,000 hours WO over haul and still make that kind of power and SFC?

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45-Shooter 1/30/2013 7:36:19 PM

1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 20%

Why is crusing speed a major requirement for a short ranged inteceptor? you r job was to get up hit the bombers and return not hang arround twiddling your thumbs Because no engine of the period could run at maximum speed for more than a few minutes and cruising speed was what you had the other 98-99% of the time.

2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 20%

wrong returning to base with 2/3 of your fuel means that you were ovefueled, both the RAF and Luftwaffe when defending flew with less than full tanks so persistance only comes into play when you change the design requirements (someting that was not early consid ered) Returning with fuel WO making the interception because there was not enough time to search is the falicy of that idea.

3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 15%

Rate of roll? not a biggy the FW 190A had a wonderfull roll yet was outclassed by later aricraft with inferior roll rates, ability to point at the target, surely that is turn ability? something you have down at 8
Rate of role is important because the plane can not turn before it rolls to bank the wings into the turn. The quicker your rate of roll, both initial and sustained, the less time you spend traveling straight ahead while either the target moves, or th e attacker lines up on your sorry arse.

Pointability is the ability to point the nose, Without Respect to the flight vector. IE, pitch athority and limits and the way the plane responds to control imputs. So if the Me-109 with it's slatted wings could pull 10-15 degrees more AoA than your Spitfire, his guns could control a larger section of the volume of space in front of the plane. The P-38 with it's counter rotating Props did not suffer from "P" effect and the resultant dificulties pointing the nose at the target. Two seperate instances of a solid tactical advantage possessed by those two planes which made them better than their comps.
Lastly, turning ability is very much less important than point ability. Please! Take some graph paper and draw a vector diagram to prove this to yourself beyond ANY doubt! The attacker only has to pull four Gs to shoot down a target pulling SIX Gs! Less if he has that extra 10-15 degrees AoA in his slotted wings!

4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 15%

your problem is that you are restricted to what is available, high MV and low RoF for heavier calibler and lack of weight for rifle calibers, and as the prefered choice cannot be centerline mounted you have to compromise with wing guns, however on the plus side wing guns are preferable for pilot with limited training/experiance (both Galand and Hartmann both agreed that wing guns were better for inexperianced pilots and noticed a sharp drop off of hits when said pilots lost ther wing guns)
One point at a time. The highest MV/BC was with the .50 Caliber Browning M2 HMG. Most, if not all other guns had for one reason or another less MV and certainly less BC! It had a rate of fire half way between the fast 20 mms and the RCMGs AND it could be mounted on the CL. ( As an aside, the quoted rates of fire, IE 480 RPM are from the long barreled M2HB in the P-26, IIRC. Not the rate or gun type, the plane it was in. With the short barreled M2 used in war time fighters the rate of fire varied between 750-850 RPM in wing mounted guns and 700-800 RPM in guns shooting through the prop disk.)

Then there is the idea that wing mounted guns were better for the less skilled. This is just silly on the face of it. Is it easier to guess where they are hitting or use the sight. Does a single tracer stream or multiple confused streams work best?

Continued on page two below.

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45-Shooter Reply part two cont... 1/30/2013 7:38:01 PM

5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 10%

so pitch is important and turn isnt?
Yes, very much so! The "Transient" rate at which you can load the plane is very important! Very much more important than rate of turn, or wing loading. Wing loading has an effect in that the higher it is, the more speed is lost in the turn at any given load. The Spit with it's elegant eliptical wing with low loading looses less speed in the turn than most other planes. But power loading makes up for this defect in a huge way. Rate of turn is just a function of speed and load. The faster the plane is going, the more load it can pull, pitch responce is the rate at which you can either start to change direction out of the bullet stream, or drag that stream over the target. Both factors very much more important than rate of turn. (At least in Guns ACM!)

6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 10%

climb is a very inportant factor in an inteceptor but it has to be sustained climb and not zoom climb by mid 1940 was thier any airforce flying without constant speed props? cetainly the RAF and Luftwaffe wernt
CS Props have nothing to do with it. They make life easier for the less skilled pilot, but other wise confer NO advantage over a manual controlled Varible Pitch Prop.

Sustained climb is important because it is a factor of aerodynamics and power loading and is also related to something we now call "Specific Excess Thrust" that can be used to trade rate of turn for wing loading etc...

7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 5%

If you are significantly slower the its highly likely that you will be the pey not the hunter
That is why it is only worth 5%. But, if your plane is faster than his under the most demanding conditions, then it is hader for him to win and easier for you to wing, leaving a mixed muddle of ties in the middle. Remember it is sustained Cruising Speed that is most important because that is what you are doing 98% of the time in between running for your life or killing the other guy!

8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! 5%

so the ability to evaid if attacked is pretty worthless in your oppinion, says a lot, the turn was the PRIMARY defense against attack yet you negate it, 80% of kills came from diving atacks from th rear and yet you want to remove the primary defense? or are you assuming that your aircraft are always going to be the attacker and not have to worry about defendin themselves?
Yes, it is almost entirely worthless if you are the attacked. Yes but note that the turn was pretty much the only deffense and if exicuted soon enough, could save your butt. But in the vast majority of cases, by everyone's oppinion, 80-95% of all targets destroyed were done in before they could start any sort of turn. One deffinintion that I like is that 93% of targets died with less than 30 degrees of bank on! It is simple, once the turn is going, it is very hard to actually shoot anyone down. note all the German GCF posted on this board. The targets are turning and not going down. For the entire length of the film. Real "dogs" like P-38s and P-47s ( six or 7 films, IIRC.) all escape because the planes shooting at them can not point the nose effectively enough to hose them!

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45-Shooter Reply part two cont... 1/30/2013 7:56:25 PM

because the engineering is of a different era, a modern F1 engine is cutting edge as was a 1930 aero engine, a car engine is a safe low tech low stress engine if you made a 24lt v12 supercharged engine today and you would be looking at 5000hp+ and would be probably lower stressed than a 1940s one

There are severe limits on both piston crown heating and piston speed that, while better today, they are not that much better. Piston speed determins the longevity of the engine. Piston crown heating determins the absolute limits of power at any given level of durability. Once those limits, reliability and durability are set, then only changing the piston crown area and length of stroke can change the power out put. With highly supercharged engines, like those used in WW-II, there is little to no room left for improvement if the durability and reliability are to remain the same. It does not matter wether the engine has over head cams or nor, or three/four valves per cylinder in the smaller engine when it relates to the larger if they are both blown. it is the blower that does most of the work.

you seem to have problems with time and how one era compairs to another Not at all, that is why I listed the power dencities of all the engines to show what was possible and what was done in both cases.The Packard Merlin would last more than 400 hours petween rebuilds in war time service and it made 2,220 HP for about, from memory off the top of my head 1.25 HP/CM^2!

In a race engine, they publish figures around 3,500 HP for that same engine, but they often do not last the 40 hours they require to both qualify and race. Just note the number of drop outs on race day if you doubt this. 1,773 CM^2/3500HP = 1.974 HP/CM^2

So if current technology can not deliver 3,500 HP for 40 hours, how much would they have to "Derate" it to make it live the 400 hours of it's WW-II cousin?

The same sort of analysis could be done for pistin speed and RPMs for the cars and their realitive durability and reliability. You would get the same sort of answers. Not as much as you think and that was pretty good back then.

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45-Shooter Reply part two cont... 1/30/2013 8:05:43 PM

1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 20%

    I use the term target defense interceptor for a defensive WW II fighter.
    I further subdivide that set of aircraft into area defense and point defense.
Then I would dismiss the rest of this as it relates only to one specific calss at a time, IE comp all of any type at one time and only use this to comp those planes. Then use the exact same criteria to comp the next class against it self and only it self, not the other types. It is mission specific.

2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 20%

CONSUMMABLES is the proper term.
So, do you think that is the right or wrong weight to give this class of charicteristics?

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45-Shooter 1/30/2013 8:06:58 PM

3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 15%

Again this is Stuart ignorant. The AIRCRAFT MANEUVER QUALITY is the combination of plane roll, climb, dive, banked turn flying dynamic characteristics that allow the fighter to point weapons at the engaged enemy target and use those weapons to service that target to destruction.

To that end, the statement GOOD ENOUGH TO SERVICE THE PRIMARY INTENDED TARGET must always be remembered. A Ju-88 night fighter is dead meat in a daylight fight against a Spitfire, but it can handle Lancasters in a bomber stream at night.

4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 15%

That is just stupid.

WEAPONS MATCHED TO SERVICE DESIGNATED PRIMARY ENEMY TARGET.

Fighters need rapid fire lightweight machine guns to kill fighters. Fighters need auto-cannon to kill bombers. Guess what area defense night fighters carry? Guess what offensive ESCORT day fighters carry?

your problem is that you are restricted to what is available, high MV and low RoF for heavier caliber and lack of weight for rifle calibers, and as the preferred choice cannot be center-line mounted you have to compromise with wing guns, however on the plus side wing guns are preferable for pilot with limited training/experience (both Galland and Hartmann both agreed that wing guns were better for in-experianced pilots and noticed a sharp drop off of hits when said pilots lost ther wing guns)

THAT's WRONG!

You can't ignore conic dispersion and bullet spread with wing mounted guns. Galland and Hartman were exceptional pilots and average shots who could stay in the saddle at optimum X point (bullet convergence, usually about 150-200 meters in front of the German plane usually the FW-190) for the two or three seconds it took them to walk bullets in. Neither of them had problems with depth perception through a crappy LCOS or simple reflex sight. Average American pilots were NOT that lucky. Get behind, get so close that he fills your canopy and SPRAY him. (Johnson) Claire Chennault had his AVG P-40's X convergence set at 300 FEET!

P-38 pilots, lucky b'tards could set guns and cannon (when it worked) to CBL (center of plane bore line.) All they had to worry about was bullet drop and how to use the P-38 like a sword. They could hit at 500 meters if they were good shots! Average for them was 350 meters.

5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 10%

so pitch is important and turn isnt?

Irrelevant separation out of a quality from AMQ.

6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 10%

CLIMB

Climb is a very important factor in an inteceptor but it has to be sustained climb and not zoom climb by mid 1940 was there any air-force flying without constant speed props? Certainly the RAF and Luftwaffe weren't

How many burned out engines and stressed out airframes do you get for that one minute difference?

If you need rapid climb to merge, develop JATO. (Germans and Americans DID for different reasons.)

[next post]

See the next post for a generic reply!

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Reactive 1/30/2013 8:08:36 PM

I get the feeling that 45 is arguing merely for the sake of it - these threads have raised interesting points and perspectives that I would otherwise be unaware of and I suspect that if I forced myself to argue then my arguments might be similarly incoherent - is it really necessary to argue when you could with the slightest bit of humility simply ask questions and then debate those points that you feel are worth debating?

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Belisarius1234 Says the man... 1/30/2013 9:47:17 PM

Who doesn't even know how the shackle release on the B-17 ACTUALLY works.

Or how bombs fall.

Or how the fighter pilot thinks.

Or how Schrage Musik worked.

Or how to spell "apparently" , (even with a !@#$%^&*()! spellchecker function! Unbelievable!)

Claims are not facts. I've actually written HOW those tactics worked when I described plane characteristics (See above, Stuart), but you were unable to comprehend what I said about break and reverse, nor did you understand Separation and Extension are part of the SAME DAMN THING because the pilot is looking over his shoulder during the separation as he extends the ASPECT ANGLE between chaser and chased to foul a guns solution as he RUNS.) Incompetent is what you are Stuart. You won't find that in "Fighter Tactics" by Shaw, either.

You either KNOW angle tactics or you don't. You don't.

to the ignorant, such as you proved to be.

Separation, extension, break, and reverse are terms you would NOT know the true meaning of.

That looks like four to me? How are "Separation and Extension" different from each other and how do they relate to Guns ACM?

Those who can read can SEE what I know.

Just because you can lift four words out of some one elses work, does not prove you know what they mean, or how to use them.
S.

I was just asking if you knew the three most important deffense Vs guns tactics of WW-II or not?
Well do you? Apearently not???

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Belisarius1234 Says the man... 1/30/2013 10:07:53 PM

Why the air forces we have TODAY are still learning from their WW II mistakes. This business of flying is so brand new to Human beings!

Those who do not learn from HISTORY (That could be Shooter, banned from three boards of which I know, for his "spam" posts.) are condemned to repeat it.

Or to put it another way... "Those who repeat the same unproductive behavior patterns expecting different outcomes are not expected to be mentally healthy."

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