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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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Jabberwocky       4/8/2013 9:04:38 PM

 
 
I just spend ten minutes looking up the Darwin raids and could not find a single refferance to any altitude above 18,000'. But I was able to find two sources for IJN/IJA aircraft ceilings! The early Zero of that time had a service ceiling of barely over 32,800', but that of course would not be true if gas for RTB over 200 miles away was up. The G-4M had a ceiling well under 30K', so why bother going higher? CANT FIND THE BOOK YET, but will keep looking.

You may doubt it, but unfortunately for you, its documented FACT. The fact that you can't find the data doesn't change the facts about what happened.
 
Yes, the GM4 had a ceiling (a little) under 30,000 ft. That why the bombers were generally at 24,000-28,000 ft. The Ki-48s and Ki-49s used in one of the Army raids came in just as high, if not higher.
 
However, the A6M3s (and A6M2s) facing the Spitfires were generally 2,000 to 4,000 ft higher than the bombers, to position themselves effectively to dive on any intercepting Spitfires.  A6M2 ceiling is generally given as just under 34,000 ft, A6M3 as just under 36,000 ft,
 
The tactic employed by the IJN was for the bombers to cruise at around 20,000 ft before reaching the target, then climb to ensure they were around 25,000 ft or higher, if possible, over the target area.
 
In answer to the first question: At the 30 minute power rating, it took a Spitfire Mk Vc with a Volkes filter 14.7 minutes to reach 30,000 ft and 20 minutes to reach 34,000 ft. With a 30 gal slipper tank (typically used during the Darwin raids), it took 16 minutes to 30,000 ft and 23.3 minutes to 34,000 ft. That is from RAAF testing in Darwin.
 
Climbs were usually done somewhat slower than that, given that they were performed in formation and performance between aircraft varied a little. Generally, it would take about 25-30 minutes to get to around 33,000 ft.
 
With a 30 gal slipper tank, the Mk Vc had about 3 hours 15 minutes of flight time. Absolute range was 700 miles. Operational range, which subtracted a 30 minute fuel reserve, was 560 miles. With a 25,000 ft intercept, operational radius was about 210-225 miles (allowing for a 30 minute reserve). Range cruise speeds were generally 225-230 mph TAS.
 
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45-Shooter       4/11/2013 1:30:44 AM

You may doubt it, but unfortunately for you, its documented FACT. The fact that you can't find the data doesn't change the facts about what happened.
 
Yes, the GM4 had a ceiling (a little) under 30,000 ft. That why the bombers were generally at 24,000-28,000 ft. The Ki-48s and Ki-49s used in one of the Army raids came in just as high, if not higher.
 
However, the A6M3s (and A6M2s) facing the Spitfires were generally 2,000 to 4,000 ft higher than the bombers, to position themselves effectively to dive on any intercepting Spitfires.  A6M2 ceiling is generally given as just under 34,000 ft, A6M3 as just under 36,000 ft,
 
The tactic employed by the IJN was for the bombers to cruise at around 20,000 ft before reaching the target, then climb to ensure they were around 25,000 ft or higher, if possible, over the target area.
 
In answer to the first question: At the 30 minute power rating, it took a Spitfire Mk Vc with a Volkes filter 14.7 minutes to reach 30,000 ft and 20 minutes to reach 34,000 ft. With a 30 gal slipper tank (typically used during the Darwin raids), it took 16 minutes to 30,000 ft and 23.3 minutes to 34,000 ft. That is from RAAF testing in Darwin.
 
Climbs were usually done somewhat slower than that, given that they were performed in formation and performance between aircraft varied a little. Generally, it would take about 25-30 minutes to get to around 33,000 ft.
 
With a 30 gal slipper tank, the Mk Vc had about 3 hours 15 minutes of flight time. Absolute range was 700 miles. Operational range, which subtracted a 30 minute fuel reserve, was 560 miles. With a 25,000 ft intercept, operational radius was about 210-225 miles (allowing for a 30 minute reserve). Range cruise speeds were generally 225-230 mph TAS.
Thank you for the details. That brings up the next question; How far were they able to detect the attack coming by radar? IIRC, the Spit's Best Climb Speed was about 135, or 145 MPH? I would think it would be slightly slower with the tank and filter to minimize drag and leave the most excess power for the climb.

 
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Maratabc       4/13/2013 8:11:08 PM
If the devious one called Shooter claims these facts exist, he must produce them. Heretofore, his word and his so-called facts has been shown by many to be false. 
 
And as I know he is devious and a falsifier, even his citations I check for veracity, as I did for the DH-108  and P-38 claims he made in which he LIED. 
 
 
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Jabberwocky       4/14/2013 9:03:36 PM

As usual, its more IIRI (If I Recall Incorrectly) with you Shooter.
 
With a 30 gal tank, Spitfires generally climbed at 160-190 mph TAS below 20,000 ft and then progressively faster as they got up higher. By the time a Mk V hit 25,000 ft, its climbing at about 200-210 mph. That's about 10-15 mph slower than a standard Mk V. Conserving fuel, climb rates were a little slower, but only on the order of 5-10 mph.
 
Books are packed away for the next two months, as I'm moving house and then away. Online only sources as of now, so don't expect particularly detailed answers.
 
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45-Shooter       4/15/2013 3:21:17 PM

rs.

Searched for half an hour in Spitfire the history, but could not find reference to climb speed so high. Are you using ground speed, or TAS? The reason it maters is because climb speed to maximize the rate of climb and thus minimize the time to climb both happen about the lower speeds mentioned in TAS, or True Air Speed as shown on the gages in the 'pit.
Where are you headed? Just curious? 
 
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Maratabc       4/15/2013 4:13:54 PM
 
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45-Shooter       4/15/2013 8:13:42 PM

http://www.messik.czweb.org/Galerie-manual/SPITFIRE%20MK.V%20PERFORMANCE%20TESTING.htm

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit2.html
Thank you for posting the links above. They, or more exactly the data in them was listed in the book, "Spitfire the History" except for the IAS listed in the links above!
168 mph climbing speed  in the Mark II.
At low altitude, but as low as 100 MPH at high altitude, at least according to the links above! Average 134 MPH, again, at least according to your links above. Score one for the admittedly faulty memory!
It took me two minutes to confirm.
Your Google foo is more powerful than mine!
 
 





 


 

 jabberwocky is right and you are wrong.





 
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Jabberwocky       4/15/2013 9:43:23 PM
Shooter said: At low altitude, but as low as 100 MPH at high altitude, at least according to the links above!
 
You do understand the difference between true air speed (TAS) and indicated air speed (IAS/ASI)? And between a Mk II and a Mk V, don't you?
 
A Spitfire II climbing at 100 mph IAS at 35,000 ft has a true (over the ground) speed of about 190 mph.
 
A Spitfire V also climbs notably faster than a Mk II, particularly at altitude thanks to the improved Merlin. At its ceiling of about 39,000 a Mk V is doing about 110 mph IAS, which is 210 mph TAS
 
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45-Shooter       4/15/2013 10:53:13 PM

Yes.
 
A Spitfire V also climbs notably faster than a Mk II, particularly at altitude thanks to the improved Merlin. At its ceiling of about 39,000 a Mk V is doing about 110 mph IAS, which is 210 mph TAS

Your prior post states 100 MPH IAS to climb above 33-35,000' IIRC, which as you point out is about 200 MPH?

 
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Maratabc       4/16/2013 1:00:40 AM
As usual the devious one either misread the data or does not understand what it means. Also as before I have asked him NOT to lie about what the data actually says. 
 
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