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Subject: How to judge what the best fighter plane is?
45-Shooter    1/3/2013 5:09:26 PM
I would list the following traits in the order of their importance; 1. Cruising speed under combat conditions. 2. Range/Persistence under combat conditions. 3. Flight qualities, specifically the ability to point the nose at the target easily and a very high rate of roll. 4. CL Guns with high MV/BC and rates of fire. 5. Pitch response, IE the rate at which you can load the plane. 6. Climb at Military Power. In WW-II terms, that means ~75-80% throttle, rich mixture and appropriate pitch on the prop.( A setting that can be held for at least 30 minutes!) 7. Top speed! To escape or run down the target. 8. Lastly the ability to turn in the so called "Dog Fight"! After you rate these choices, I'll mark the list with what I think is the strength of each atribute.
 
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45-Shooter       7/17/2013 9:10:27 PM

Some were great shots. Hartman would aim for specific parts of the enemy plane! Not just the plane, but specific SMALL parts, like the oil cooler! He was a great shot and rarely used more than a few rounds to down his targets.
 
Really? have you a source for that? it sounds like another Shooter "made up on the spot" fact
His biography? 
er what stratigic advantages? the Brits in the BoB had to intercept and intercept in tactical adverse situations, Like the Germans were restricted to part throttle, far from home and tied to the bombers?
and they had height advantage, the RAF would be coming to them, they had numerical advantages in nearly all engagements (it wasnt till late in the BoB the Germans were tied to the Bombers, prior to that they were EXPECTED to hunt the RAF)
What about the RAF being vectored to a position of advantage by GCI? What about the single largest advantage of all? The fuel state of the attacking fighters restricting they use of full throttle and still being able to RTB? When one side can use full throttle and the other can not, which side do you think will score more? Right! 
RIGHT! the Germans in France could choose when and where to fight, rarely did they engage Actually, they intercepted far more RAF sweeps than the RAF was able to intercept the Germans!
Were did you get this from as its just not true, the Luftwaffe rarely engaged the fighter sweeps and never unless they had tactical and more often numerical superiority
Where did you get this from? 
 
why should I repeat something that you have been told hundreds of time yet still ignore? Just because you repeat a statement numerous times does not make it any more valid. Exactly where did you get the idea that the Luftwaffe did not intercept as high a %age of attackers as the RAF over Southern England? 
 
 I dispute that the RAF was at any significantly DIFFERENT strategic disadvantage than the Germans were over southern England!
That shows you have zero understanding of the enviroments
It seems to me that you are the one who ignores the fuel state restrictions of those types of missions? 
 
 
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45-Shooter       7/17/2013 9:42:37 PM


true,
but that is what happens when you get anothe couple of years developing radar, by 43 the german radar chain was far more effective than Home Chain was in 40
I am talking about 1941!
 
The RAF was much stronger than the Germans over Northern France when they made their fighter sweeps.
Actually not, the average circus contained less fighters than the average BoB raid and thats not including rubbarbs (where the vast majority of RAF losses were)
According to the RAF TO&E, they were stronger than the Luftwaffe, and on top of that, the Luftwaffe was split along two fronts. So yes, the RAF did out number the Germans.
 
The only reason that the Germans did not intercept more of them was that there were so many more targets than there were planes to fight them.
no it was a case of these raids could and were ignored as being being just anoying and of little threat, it wasnt like the targets was part of Germany
I would turn your trick back on you; Where did you get this idea? 


 
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oldbutnotwise       7/18/2013 3:49:41 AM
The reason that I want this, is that the vast majority of the numbers you are putting forward are either partially or wholly incorrect and when corrected on them, you continue to repeat them ad nauseum.
I am having trouble finding the particular batch of numbers concerning RAF Fighter sweeps over Northern France that I find most interesting. They have been posted several times on this board. That is why I use them. Still looking?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAF_Fighter_Command
 
do you ever actually READ your sources before posting them?
"1941. Large numbers of Spitfires were sent out with small groups of medium bombers in often vain attempts to lure the German fighters into combat. Results of these operations through 1941 were decidedly mixed, as the short range of the Spitfire precluded an overly aggressive stance, and with just two experienced Jagdgeschwader units left in Western Europe ( JG 2 & JG 26 ; comprising 180 fighters at most) targets were often few but dangerous"
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/18/2013 3:56:46 AM
 
Really? have you a source for that? it sounds like another Shooter "made up on the spot" fact
His biography? 
No his Bio says nothing of the sort - so it is made up then!
 
 
What about the RAF being vectored to a position of advantage by GCI?
You are aware are you not that CGI only worked upto the point the Germans crossed the coast after that the RAF were limited to the Observer corp!
 
What about the single largest advantage of all? The fuel state of the attacking fighters restricting they use of full throttle and still being able to RTB?
Just how long do you think the Dogfights lasted? the 109s only used full throttle once engaged prior to that they were flyin slow to stay with the bombers
 
When one side can use full throttle and the other can not, which side do you think will score more? Right!
you havent a clue or are being dishonsest which is it?
 
RIGHT! the Germans in France could choose when and where to fight, rarely did they engage Actually, they intercepted far more RAF sweeps than the RAF was able to intercept the Germans!
Were did you get this from as its just not true, the Luftwaffe rarely engaged the fighter sweeps and never unless they had tactical and more often numerical superiority
Where did you get this from?
That anoying little thing called history, it keeps getting in the way of your theories doesnt it
why should I repeat something that you have been told hundreds of time yet still ignore? Just because you repeat a statement numerous times does not make it any more valid.
No it doesnt, however it doesnt make it less either, especially when its supported by actual evidence unlike those points you keep spouting
 
 Exactly where did you get the idea that the Luftwaffe did not intercept as high a %age of attackers as the RAF over Southern England?
I dispute that the RAF was at any significantly DIFFERENT strategic disadvantage than the Germans were over southern England!
That shows you have zero understanding of the enviroments
It seems to me that you are the one who ignores the fuel state restrictions of those types of missions?
 
I dont  I just also look at other considerations and not fixate on one or two aspects like you do,
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/18/2013 4:03:34 AM
but that is what happens when you get anothe couple of years developing radar, by 43 the german radar chain was far more effective than Home Chain was in 40
I am talking about 1941!
and what CGI did the Germans have in 41?
 
The RAF was much stronger than the Germans over Northern France when they made their fighter sweeps.
Actually not, the average circus contained less fighters than the average BoB raid and thats not including rubbarbs (where the vast majority of RAF losses were)
According to the RAF TO&E, they were stronger than the Luftwaffe, and on top of that, the Luftwaffe was split along two fronts. So yes, the RAF did out number the Germans.
wow you rearly are stupid at times its doesnt matter if you have 2 million aircraft if a raid of 20 gets intercepted by 30 you are still out numbered
 
The only reason that the Germans did not intercept more of them was that there were so many more targets than there were planes to fight them.
no it was a case of these raids could and were ignored as being being just anoying and of little threat, it wasnt like the targets was part of Germany
I would turn your trick back on you; Where did you get this idea? 

have you read history at all? have you read about these raids where the raid could see 109s in the  distance but they refused to engage, or how the Germans on the ground complained that the Luftwaffe allowed the raids to go uncotetsted?
 
Thyere are a good few books on these raids but you have obviously not read any of them
 
 
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45-Shooter       7/18/2013 2:06:52 PM


Does that about sum it up in easy to understand terms?

 
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45-Shooter       7/18/2013 2:56:02 PM

 
What about the single largest advantage of all? The fuel state of the attacking fighters restricting they use of full throttle and still being able to RTB?

Just how long do you think the Dogfights lasted? the 109s only used full throttle once engaged prior to that they were flyin slow to stay with the bombers
My point exactly! They were flying slowly to conserve fuel and keep position with the bombers. Regardless of how long the dog fights lasted, before they started, the escorting fighters were targets at an extreme disadvantage. Given that all here and noted authors and Aces all say that slower is disadvantaged to faster attackers. Secondly, the RAF flew their entire missions at the largest practical throttle openings. This had two effects, first to make it easier to attack and second to make it harder for the Germans to attack them at those times when the German pilot sees the RAF Pilot first! The German is at a huge disadvantage because it is much harder for him to gain attack position from his slower starting speed. This IS the single largest factor in the two battles! Every other thing is minor compared to this!
 
When one side can use full throttle and the other can not, which side do you think will score more? Right!

you havent a clue or are being dishonsest which is it?
The attacker can start the fight with the throttle wide open and the mixture full, or Auto-Rich and the Prop set to the required pitch. The attacked can not advance the throttle until he sees the attacker coming!
Exactly where did you get the idea that the Luftwaffe did not intercept as high a %age of attackers as the RAF over Southern England?
 
I dispute that the RAF was at any significantly DIFFERENT strategic disadvantage than the Germans were over southern England!
 
That shows you have zero understanding of the enviroments
I think you are confusing strategy and tactics with "environments"
 
It seems to me that you are the one who ignores the fuel state restrictions of those types of missions?

I dont  I just also look at other considerations and not fixate on one or two aspects like you do,
No, you ignore the BIG IMPORTANT FACTS  and concentrate on the miniscule and insignificant.
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/18/2013 3:07:54 PM
we have been through this before and you are added nothing just restating discredited ideas
 
so until you come up with something new this is the last post on this
 
but I would suggest that you do a bit of research, I know you wont but hey that's just you incapable of learning
 
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45-Shooter       7/18/2013 5:50:57 PM

Why don't you learn something new!



 
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marat,jean       7/18/2013 11:58:18 PM
Answer? Because, you, Stewie, cannot learn, and you lie.  








 
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