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Subject: F-35 vs. Eurofighter
IAFbestinworld    8/13/2004 11:49:07 PM
Lockheed says that besides the f-22, the f-35 will be the best air to air fighter in the future, is this true? Could an f-35 take a Eurofighter? My opinion says yes since f-35 contains more stealthy characteristics.
 
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Shaken    RWR of datalink... :Aussigunner on IR masking I answered you   9/1/2004 2:16:04 PM
>> (Shaken) >> "In the case that the Flanker picks up some datalink telemetry,..." >> (D.Jim) >> FLANKER does what? So now every FLANKER is a SIGINT platform as well as the best-equipped, best-armed fighter in the sky? I'm thinking no. That's hard enough for the Russians in an Il-20, much less in a two-seat fighter that is totally not equipped for doing so. (Shaken) Admittedly, I'm speculating in this area. The comparison is a fight set ten years from now. I'm guessing that trying to notice AAM datalink and inter-aircraft datalinks is something RWRs will attempt in that time frame. I think this is something that many manufacturers will attempt to provide and once supplied (not just in Flanker), the capabilities will be wildly overclaimed. My guess is the effectiveness will be limited and nations with better computer technology will be more effective doing so. An RWR would have the best luck noticing messages aimed at the missile headed at it, if the datalink has any sort of beam-focussing (which seems like a good LPI strategy). -- Shaken - out --
 
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displacedjim    RE:RWR of datalink... :Aussigunner on IR masking I answered you   9/1/2004 5:57:26 PM
Try a google on SPO-15 (the typical RWR of Russian MiG-29s and Su-27s) and see just how sophisticated (NOT!) it is. Here's a couple: http://www.overscan.co.uk/Avionics.html http://www.acig.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=1958&forum=26&14 Displacedjim
 
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Shaken    RE:RWR of datalink... :Aussigunner on IR masking I answered you   9/1/2004 6:44:41 PM
>> (D.Jim) >> Try a google on SPO-15 (the typical RWR of Russian MiG-29s >> and Su-27s) and see just how sophisticated (NOT!) it is. (Shaken) I'm sorry if I hadn't been clear. I'm not arguing the merits of Russian RWRs (which I would think are not very strong). I'm saying that even with a very good RWRs (speculative Israeli sale of their 2012 model to the IAF), the non-stealthy aircraft looking around through the soda-straw IRST is still in deep trouble. I'm also inferring that the US and other JSF team members are accounting for the possibility of hot- RWRs making it into adversary aircraft. -- Shaken - out --
 
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ej    RE:RWR of datalink... :Aussigunner on IR masking I answered you   9/2/2004 4:50:30 AM
The APG77 radar on the has a "low probability of intercept" mode which makes it very hard even for the latest RWR to detect , if the AESA radar on the F35 will have this ability it will be very hard the opponet to detect an AMRAAM launch because you dont have to get a lock , the missile just guides itself to the enemy aircraft and get a lock with it own radar , by then it will be to late for the RWR to do any good
 
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human7    RE:F-35 vs. Eurofighter   9/11/2004 10:55:55 AM
The F-35 may be superior as it will incorporate the best that Eurofighter has to offer. http://www.baesystems.com/newsroom/2004/sep/080904news1.htm http://www.baesystems.com/newsroom/2004/aug/250804news1.htm
 
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Professor Fickle    RE:F-35 vs. Eurofighter   12/6/2004 6:37:35 PM
The Eurofighter will have better maneuverability and that is it! The JSF has a huge advantage stealth, it will operational until ~2010 so its avionics will be a decade newer. The METOR will come out later than the AIM-120D. Although the exact range of the new AMRAAM is unknown, the METEOR has a range of 100 Km.
 
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Professor Fickle    RE:F-35 vs. Eurofighter   1/26/2005 3:49:16 PM
Has an heard of the F-35 electro optical targeting System(EOTS), it is quite impressive For full 360 degree tracking capability for both air-to-air and surface-to-air threats, the JSF has an electro-optical targeting system (EOTS). Mounted in the fuselage and using a industrial sapphire window, the EOTS provides high resolution imagery, infrared search and track, automatic tracking, laser designation and range finding, and automatic laser spot tracking. The EOTS system is incorporated with the aircraft's electro-optical distributed aperture system (EO-DAS) which is intended to give the pilot a 360 degree, 3-axis sphere of sensor coverage. Sensor data is available to the pilot via numerous pit multifunction displays, as well as an advanced helmet mounted display. this is form http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,Soldiertech_JSF,,00.html?ESRC=soldiertech.nl
 
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french stratege    F-35 : a unsatisfactory compromise to preserve F22??   1/26/2005 4:27:43 PM
I think that basically the F35 mistake is USAF requirement to get a internal bay to achieve stealthy mission with old weapons like early Amraam and bomb. But internal capacity is only 2 big bombs and 2 ammraam and compromise a lot aerodynamic efficicency and weight and it is why Dassault refused when redesigning rafale, to keep its flight performance. A conformal carriage of a stealthy amraam and design of conformal carryage stealth (smart) bombs and missile, would have enable stealth mission with the same payload, and stealth air superiority mission with 6 amraam and better flight performance and trust to weight ratio. A conformal pod could have been use to carry older (jdam) M82 bomb. RCS would have been close to sheduled RCS performance of F35 with better flight performance.
 
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AussieEngineer    RE:F-35 : a unsatisfactory compromise to preserve F22??   1/26/2005 8:17:12 PM
Being able to drop unstealthy weapons is a major advantage in cost. A stealth bomb or missile is going to need RAM which from what I understand is very expensive stuff. If your dropping a bomb on a tank it would be better if the bomb wasn't more expensive than the tank. I don't see how putting weapons on external pylons would improve performance. If you look at pictures of the JSF you can see that the bomb bay is entirely clean, it doesn't bulge into the airstream or anything so the only extra drag will be from opening the bomb bay doors. Having an internal bomb bay has a weight increase but that would cause less of a performance hit than bulky external weapons pods and stealth bombs sticking out into the airstream. I would imagine that the reason the Rafale couldn't have internal carriage of weapons was that it wasn't designed to in the first place unlike the JSF which was. The Rafale's original design would have added low observability as an after thought, probably after a lot of the major airframe characteristics were decided upon. Thus Dassault did the best to incorporate stealth features into the aircraft after low observability became a requirement and did a good job of it.
 
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   RE:stealthy underwing payloads?   1/26/2005 8:48:33 PM
Based on my understanding of what makes an aircraft stealthy versus RADAR, coating a missile with RAM would be the rough equivalent to painting the side of a barn in camoflauge pattern. RAMs effectiveness is directly proportional to the reflectivity of the material to be coated. An underwing bomb or missile is HUGELY reflective, diminishing the returns from a RAM coating to an almost inconsequential state. The best way to illustrate this would be the B1s bomb bay doors. The bay doors are coated in broadband foam with a carbon fiber and plastic epoxy filler. This is the thickest, most effective, and most expensive RAM on the market. As an aside, it's also some of the least weather resistant RAM available (the carbon fiber and plastic epoxy helps, but multiplies the cost). Despite that fact, when those doors are open, the B1's RCS is increased by roughly a factor of 20 (it is twenty times more detectable than in a cornformal state). It just doesn't make sense, economically or functionally, to bother..
 
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