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Subject: Which open source book is the best...
45-Shooter    7/10/2013 11:47:57 PM
... at explaining how A2A Combat works in the modern world? It must be available at Amazon today to count and written in easy to understand language... English only!
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/11/2013 8:15:26 AM
Not exactly easy to understand but probably the best book on the market for ACM
 
Fighter Combat: Tactics and Manoeuvring
Robert L. Shaw
for a more simplistic view
Air Combat Manoeuvres: The Technique and History of Air Fighting for Flight Simulation

Steve Thompson
 
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45-Shooter    Thank you!   7/11/2013 1:53:49 PM

Not exactly easy to understand but probably the best book on the market for ACM

Fighter Combat: Tactics and
Manoeuvring

Robert L. Shaw
I already have this one, but ordered the other. You never know when you might find a gem in the rough.
 
for a more simplistic view
Air Combat Manoeuvres: The Technique and History of Air Fighting for Flight Simulation
Steve Thompson


 
 
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marat,jean       7/11/2013 1:58:10 PM
for a more simplistic view
Air Combat Manoeuvres: The Technique and History of Air Fighting for Flight Simulation
Steve Thompson
 
LOL.
 
 
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45-Shooter       7/13/2013 12:32:12 PM

for a more simplistic view

Air Combat Manoeuvres: The Technique and History of Air Fighting for Flight Simulation

Steve Thompson
LOL.

Well actually, with out the various mass market games out there, none of these books would have be written. The text books issued to real and prospective fighter pilots are not meant for average people. If your IQ is not at least 115 there is little chance you would under stand or be able to remember it all. I have, IMHO, found the best of those books meant for laymen to be "The Art of the Kill" By Pete Bonanni! (SP?) It uses plain words and easy to understand pictures to make complex issues seem simple. Reading it will, if you comprehend and remember it, make you a much better Sim Pilot and even give you a leg up should you actually rent a plane for some ACM fun.

While I know in my heart that you will Pooh-pooh anything to do with Sims, know this, Every Government on the planet uses them as training tools for it's combat pilots. And I do not mean the dome types, but the exact same Sims you can buy over the counter! ( It gives them a multi-tiered expense rate for pilot training. OTC Sims at the bottom, domes in the middle and at least two different types of planes at the top. So keep your snide remarks to yourself and learn something!
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/13/2013 5:37:18 PM
Well actually, with out the various mass market games out there, none of these books would have be written.
 Sim books obviously do, the Fighter Combat book predates most sims
 
 
If your IQ is not at least 115 there is little chance you would under stand or be able to remember it all.
conceit again
I have, IMHO, found the best of those books meant for laymen to be "The Art of the Kill" By Pete Bonanni! (SP?) It uses plain words and easy to understand pictures to make complex issues seem simple. Reading it will, if you comprehend and remember it, make you a much better Sim Pilot and even give you a leg up should you actually rent a plane for some ACM fun.
 
As Shaw's book contradicts just about everything you have said about air combat and bearing in mind that you claim to have read it, we can make some assumption, one you completely failed to understand any of his points and second based on your post above your IQ is not in that high percentile

While I know in my heart that you will Pooh-pooh anything to do with Sims,
No only claiming that sim performance indicates skill in the real world
 
know this, Every Government on the planet uses them as training tools for it's combat pilots.
only as an adjunct to actual training not as a main training tool
 And I do not mean the dome types, but the exact same Sims you can buy over the counter! ( It gives them a multi-tiered expense rate for pilot training. OTC Sims at the bottom, domes in the middle and at least two different types of planes at the top. So keep your snide remarks to yourself and learn something!
 
side remarks are your forte as are outrageous claims that you cannot support

 
 
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45-Shooter       7/14/2013 7:42:57 PM

Then we can assume it is out of date and not well grounded in theory! Just because it got published, does not mean that it is any good, or worthy of use. and bearing in mind that you claim to have read it, Can't remember what is in it at this moment, so can not take your claims at face value. we can make some assumptions, one you completely failed to understand any of his points Or more likely, I did understand his points and dispute their validity and usefulness. and second based on your post above your IQ is not in that high percentileOr again, and more likely, I am smarter than he is and found faults in his work and ideas.
So it would seem that you were only able to perceive two of the four readily discernible possible outcomes of your assertion.   

While I know in my heart that you will Pooh-pooh anything to do with Sims,

No only claiming that sim performance indicates skill in the real world
WOW!!! You are the very first person on this board/thread who agrees with me on this point! Flight Sims ARE valuable tools that can teach us many things about air combat. This brings up an interesting idea, just out of the blue as it were; If the above book was written pre-Sims as you state, then many of the points it might espouse might lack proofs based on data that could have been learned from those Sims?
 
know this, Every Government on the planet uses them as training tools for it's combat pilots.
only as an adjunct to actual training not as a main training tool See the comments below to see my agreement with you on this!
And I do not mean the dome types, but the exact same Sims you can buy over the counter! ( It gives them a multi-tiered expense rate for pilot training. OTC Sims at the bottom, domes in the middle and at least two different types of planes at the top. So keep your snide remarks to yourself and learn something!
 
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oldbutnotwise       7/15/2013 3:02:33 AM
Then we can assume it is out of date and not well grounded in theory! Just because it got published, does not mean that it is any good, or worthy of use. and bearing in mind that you claim to have read it,
Can't remember what is in it at this moment, so can not take your claims at face value.
 
 
 we can make some assumptions, one you completely failed to understand any of his points Or more likely, I did understand his points and dispute their validity and usefulness.
wow you dispute the opinion of a experianced fighter pilot and ex instructor at Top Gun, an author whos work is required reading by fighter pilots and has post doctorate work on the subject
 
 and second based on your post above your IQ is not in that high percentileOr again, and more likely, I am smarter than he is and found faults in his work and ideas.
wow you are a conceited of fool arnt you, claimin to be smarter than him when even a novice on here can find huge holes in your arguments

So it would seem that you were only able to perceive two of the four readily discernible possible outcomes of your assertion.    
 
No what I can see is that you have an ego that your intelligence cant support

            While I know in my heart that you will Pooh-pooh anything to do with Sims,

No only claiming that sim performance indicates skill in the real world
WOW!!! You are the very first person on this board/thread who agrees with me on this point! Flight Sims ARE valuable tools that can teach us many things about air combat.
 
a tool, yes, but the common comercial versions are extreamly limited and are games not teaching tools, they are generic in performance and programmed to keep the player engaged and playing - in short they are not real and do not give a real insight into aircombat, if usded with this in mind they can help with spacial awareness and reaction time, but thinking that being good in a pc sim would make you good in an action combat enviroment is a huge joke
 
This brings up an interesting idea, just out of the blue as it were; If the above book was written pre-Sims as you state, then many of the points it might espouse might lack proofs based on data that could have been learned from those Sims?
So what you are saying is that a programmer is a better combat pilot than say... a combat pilot!
 
how do you tink these sims are written? do you think that the program team have some amazing insight that is unavailable to experianced combat pilots? do you think that the AI in the sims is superior to a human pilot?
You are just showing your stupidity (again)
 
 

 
 
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45-Shooter       7/16/2013 12:48:26 AM

While I know in my heart that you will Pooh-pooh anything to do with Sims,

No only claiming that sim performance indicates skill in the real world

WOW!!! You are the very first person on this board/thread who agrees with me on this point! Flight Sims ARE valuable tools that can teach us many things about air combat.
a tool, yes, but the common comercial versions are extreamly limited and are games not teaching tools, they are generic in performance and programmed to keep the player engaged and playing - in short they are not real and do not give a real insight into aircombat, if usded with this in mind they can help with spacial awareness and reaction time, but thinking that being good in a pc sim would make you good in an action combat enviroment is a huge joke
Not really! Most Sims are very well researched and vetted by real pilots of the type. Furthermore they also mimic the real world test results of the time AND have validation from current fighter pilots on retainer to the Development teams. So yes, SIMs do provide real world experience. However "GAMES" like X-Box and the like are not Sims, they are games just as you mentioned, but they are at least partially life like at some level.
 
This brings up an interesting idea, just out of the blue as it were; If the above book was written pre-Sims as you state, then many of the points it might espouse might lack proofs based on data that could have been learned from those Sims?

So what you are saying is that a programmer is a better combat pilot than say... a combat pilot!
No, I am saying that the farther forward in history you go, the more you know about the past! That is one of the reasons why I think that many old timers from the war are less skilled than current pilots. That is why their opinions are less valid than those who worked into the jet age and even less then into the Sim age.

how do you tink these sims are written? do you think that the program team have some amazing insight that is unavailable to experianced combat pilots? Yes, absolutely! AND they are much more knowledgeable that pilots of the WW-II era! do you think that the AI in the sims is superior to a human pilot? Depending on the era and training, possibly very much so! All of the Sims benefit from modern knowledge and as games they have several levels of AI Skill to prevent the player from getting hosed out of hand every time he plays the game. Furthermore, the tactics are better than they were in WW-II. If you want a revelation, read old pilots manuals!


 
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marat,jean       7/19/2013 12:08:01 AM
The flight sims that model real flying have physical stress inputs on the pilot, Stewie. The ones you 'fly' in your fantasies do NOT model this factor and so I do laugh at you, when you claim that these 'toys' model the 'real' thing.
 
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45-Shooter       7/26/2013 2:24:03 AM

The flight sims that model real flying have physical stress inputs on the pilot, Stewie. The ones you 'fly' in your fantasies do NOT model this factor and so I do laugh at you, when you claim that these 'toys' model the 'real' thing. How can you comment on my experiences when you have no experiences of your own to compare them too?
See "Air Combat Maneuvers, the technique and history of air fighting for flight simulation"! It really is a good book!

 
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