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Subject: George Bush's State Dept is looking out Americans.
Nanheyangrouchuan    3/23/2008 12:46:18 PM
"http://www.chinalawblog.com/2008/03/beijing_olympics_you_want_jail.html" The Absurdity Allegory and China (AAC) blog makes an excellent legal point in its recent post, "Breaking Eggs in the Bird's Nest." The post is on a March 21, 2008 State Department fact sheet concerning the 2008 Olympics. This fact sheet has received its fair share of coverage from the blogosphere for warning visitors to beware of crime in China and telling them not to expect privacy from the Chinese government (here, here, here, here, here, here, and here). All well and good. But AAC spotted something crucial in that directive that everybody else seems to have missed or glossed over. AAC notes how "there is a much shorter passage, a single sentence, that many who are planning the trip need to pay particular attention to." That is that if you end up in a Chinese jail, the US government cannot help you get out: The Department of State or the U.S. Embassy and Consulates General cannot have an American released from prison. AAC has this to say about this warning: Is that clear? Can it be any clearer? What this says is that there are no get-out-jail-cards in this game; there’s no stopping at Go to give Dad a call; no one’s going to make your bail before the sun goes down. That’s a fact. And another fact is that if you end up being hauled off to jail, there’s a very good chance that it will permanently alter your perceptions of basic human nature, and it won’t be for the better. All you folks who have visions of “making a statement” – from unfurling politically sensitive banners to setting yourself on fire atop the Water Cube – think again. This is not Kansas, and, truth be told, it never will be. In fact, it has never had any desire to go that way at all, since not only do the Chinese disagree with Kansans’ views on intelligent design, they also think that all US police forces in Kansas and elsewhere are wimps when it comes to dealing with youth who want to shake things up. They have a history of dealing harshly with that sort of thing here, and if you are unfamiliar with those events, bone up before getting on the plane with your high-minded ideals. They may not beat you to a pulp in front of the camera, but they’ll have you ting your skivs when the door closes and the world’s on the far other side. And that will only be the beginning. This is something that everyone with an axe to grind and enough money to come to Beijing during an Olympic year needs to know. The State Department has warned you that they cannot get you out of jail. They’re not lying. No matter what you think of George Bush, Dick Cheney or Condoleezza Rice, you must understand that the State Department is not crying “Wolf!” This is China coming-out, and if you want to wreck it for them, then they’re going to make you pay. And the price may be a lot dearer than you can even imagine. Though I am sure most experienced travelers understand that US (or German or French or whatever) law typically ends at the border when it comes to criminal violations, you would be surprised at how many travelers either do not know this or think that their embassy or consulate will be there to bail them out no matter what. Now before you laugh, please realize many US companies believe their US trademark or patent registrations extend to China, so it is certainly not that large a legal leap for people to believe US criminal law extends to them wherever they may go. My firm has assisted on a number of criminal cases inside China for American (and European) defendants and, nearly without exception, we are told (usually by both the defendant and his family) that the US Embassy is not doing enough to get the defendant freed from the Chinese jail. When we explain that the US government will not usually employ its political capital on this or that drug or fraud case, our clients seem downright surprised. So to add to what AAC has already said, let me make it perfectly clear. If you get arrested in China, the role of the US government (be it the consulate the embassy, or whatever), will almost certainly be limited to helping you find a lawyer, helping you contact your family for assistance, and maybe helping you with the logistics of having your family or friends get food or magazines into you at the jail. I am NOT expressing an opinion as to how anyone should act during the Olympics, but it certainly does not hurt to know the potential repercussions.
 
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EvilFishy       3/23/2008 5:01:25 PM
I do not mean to flame when I ask:  how is this news? 

This has always been common knowledge to myself and everybody I know who travels (especially to Africa, Asia, and South America) and I suspect any person with a brain that actually functions will know two things when leaving their home nation (be it America or anywhere else):

1) Do not **** around with their laws
2) Do not do anything stupid.
 
Oh and NO, I am not defending China.   There is nothing I would love more than freedom for the Chinese and the collapse of that Fascist state-in-making but let us have no illusions:  whether you travel to Bali, Liberia, or Mexico, you are subject to their laws and you just may end up in jail (where toilet paper is not provided by the state) or much, MUCH WORSE for offenses that may not be such in your home nation.

I am a big fan of justice but I hold little remorse for people who disappear or acquire life sentences for doing stupid things in backwards, third world nations who just happen to have lovely beaches.

My two cents at least.

 

 

 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       3/23/2008 8:18:48 PM
Just as in the plot for "Red Corner", Western gov'ts will let their individual (non-wealthy) citizens hang out to dry but expend vast diplomatic currency (and give away techno and biz secrets) for the benefit of corporations, even when those corporations break the law.
 
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Claymore       3/23/2008 9:39:51 PM
You are a fool to think it is his State Department.

The State Department has been undermining Bush for years Nanhey. These career diplomats are no arch conservatives.

 
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Yimmy       3/23/2008 10:01:27 PM
"When in Rome - do as the Romans do..."
 
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EvilFishy       3/23/2008 10:12:38 PM
What is it about the poor that they rail on and on against the wealthy?   
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       3/23/2008 11:01:14 PM

"When in Rome - do as the Romans do..."



Do things as the locals do for long enough and you end up thinking and acting like a local, its a real mind fudger.
 
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Nanheyangrouchuan       3/23/2008 11:05:12 PM

What is it about the poor that they rail on and on against the wealthy?   


The rich tend to have a habit of crapping on the poor, sometimes for no other reason than entertainment.  Just check up on histories numerous revolts.  They weren't exactly unjustified even if the new administration was no better.  Thankfully alot of checks and balances in the EU, Japan, Canada and the US, as well as the right to own rocket launchers and explosives in the US keeps things on a relatively even keel.

But don't think for a minute that certain mentalities sank with the Titanic, especially when blue bloods are involved.

Right now I'm trying to track down the DVD "Born rich".
 
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xylene       3/24/2008 2:07:40 AM
Non-violent protest only works when the resident soverign has a degree of respect for human rights and life. This is why non-violent movements have worked in some places and why they would not have worked in Hitler's Germany or Beijing in 1989.
 
What I find alarming is the degree of instilled nationalism within the regular Chinese people. Even the recent Tibet uprising has regular Chinese in support of their regime and bitter toward non-Chinese reporting of the facts. It tells me there has been a sea change in mentality of the Chinese people that they will rally around the PRC for racial and nationalistic reasons which trump any want on their part of political liberalisation.
 
As far as State Department, the US State Department is very lousy at tending to the needs of their citizens. The consulates of many nations are much more prompt and responsive to detention of their citizens at immigration and I've known fellow Americans that have been left on the lurch for days because nobody at the US consulate was willing to even send a fax.
 
As far as being jailed in a foriegn country I find the USA the easiest nation in the world to be arrested in. Except for some dictatorial regimes and third world terror states, the police in many nations seem more concerned with behaviour and crime. In this country police are only promoted on number of arrests per period. Makes no difference to them if you are guilty or innocent , that's for lawyers and courts to figure out. The sheer number of laws in the nation allow a lot of latitude for police to stop and question anyone. With use of legal inciters a routine traffic stop can escalate to a felony arrest dramatically quick. The other thing is that in the USA the criminal justice system is an industry in itself employing millions of people. The system is dependent on a revolving door of petty offenders to justify itself.
 
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wrathofachilles       4/11/2008 10:25:04 PM
When you travel abroad, you are subject to the laws of the nation you are travelling to. The Constitution does not travel with you. I cannot believe how many people are ignorant as to this point. If you break the law in China, you are subject to Chinese law, and there's a very limited amount American consular officials can do to help you. Similarly, if a Chinese person breaks the law in America, Chinese consular officials will be unable to provide a get-out-of-jail-free card. I fail to see what is unfair or difficult to understand about this.
 
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EvilFishy       4/11/2008 11:19:07 PM
---Nanheyangrouchuan--- The rich tend to have a habit of crapping on the poor, sometimes for no other reason than entertainment.---

People **** (crap) on other people. 

The wealthy **** on other people.

The poor **** on other people.

This is human nature and has nothing to do with the size of your bank account.

---Nanheyangrouchuan---  Just check up on histories numerous revolts.

 They weren't exactly unjustified even if the new administration was no better.  Thankfully alot of checks and balances in the EU, Japan, Canada and the US, as well as the right to own rocket launchers and explosives in the US keeps things on a relatively even keel.---

Oddly enough (or not if you understand the history) wealth is more often than not a requisite for:

-owning rocket launchers and explosives

-influencing Congress critters or those in power on really any level in any significant way (with few exceptions).

I do not believe this to be an accident. 

---Nanheyangrouchuan--- But don't think for a minute that certain mentalities sank with the Titanic, especially when blue bloods are involved.

Right now I'm trying to track down the DVD "Born rich".---

My experience tells me that those mentalities you mention are not a product of wealth but an act of human nature.

A wealthy person is a wealthy person regardless of how much money he has or the size of his tax return (although I like mine thick) and a poor person is poor by the same standard.

I sense a bit of resentment towards the wealthy from you. Is this so? If so; why?

 
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