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Subject: Effectiveness of non-AD weapons at air defense
Roman    6/5/2007 12:52:09 PM
Just how (in-)effective are normal weapons (assault rifles, machine guns, RPGs, etcetera), by which I mean non-air defense weapons, at providing air defense? How should they best be utilized for air defense purposes in the absence of dedicated air defense weapons?
 
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Mechanic       6/6/2007 1:24:37 PM
Infantry weapons are moderately effective against helicopters at close range. Modern tank guns with special ammunition can be used against helos as well as modern IFV auto cannons. Against fighters/attack aircraft non AD-dedicated  weapons are useless. Even old AA-guns are very limitedly effective.

An infantry platoon (or similar) utilizes its weapons in the best possible way by not shooting them at a fighter to reduce the probability to be detected by the plane. Against helos infantry weapons work best when the whole unit fires simultaneous short bursts at common lead point. That creates kind of shotgun effect and slightly raises probability of a hit.
 
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Roman       6/7/2007 11:59:17 AM

 "Against fighters/attack aircraft non AD-dedicated  weapons are useless. Even old AA-guns are very limitedly effective. "
Well, what if the fighters/attack aircraft are flying low?
"An infantry platoon (or similar) utilizes its weapons in the best possible way by not shooting them at a fighter to reduce the probability to be detected by the plane."
This is probably true, but what if the fighter/attack aircraft has already detected them and they have nowhere to run/hide?

 
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Roman       6/7/2007 12:00:11 PM
Please somebody explain how to format the quotations on these boards - they always cause me problems.
 
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Mechanic       6/14/2007 1:02:09 PM
An assault riffle/LMG can't be succesfuly used against a figther/attack aircraft period. I have had opportunity to be at the ground zero of simulated low level attack runs many times. If I ever find my self in similar situation but with live ammo I will direct my all and full efforts to get my self as much under ground as possible. There are always better places to hide and cover.
 
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Lawman       6/14/2007 5:33:20 PM
The reality is that lots of weapons can be used against helicopters, though most non-AA types are only really useful when the helo is at low level and low speed. A lucky shot against a helo is not that unusual, it really just depends on the type of helo, in terms of how much damage it will do. This was the lesson the UK learned (though arguably didn't learn very well) in the Falklands, when Gazelle light helos were shot at by infantry, causing fatalities for the crew, which wouldn't have happened (at least not as easily) on better protected helos.
 
As for fighters, as already mentioned, infantry weapons are not going to do anything useful. As for AA guns, it depends entirely on how they are aimed, and as such, what type they are. A manually aimed ZU-23-2 is probably close to useless, but in contrast, the ZSU-23-4 is very deadly against low flying fighters, especially slower ones. This was always the worry for NATO during the Cold War, when tank-killing fighters and attack aircraft would have to fly low and slow to get a lock using Mavericks (pre IIR Maverick days), making them bait for the Shilkas. Of course nowadays the fighters have much better weapons, and thus would almost never put themselves in range of such systems, but there is always still the risk. As part of an integrated air defence system, with medium/high altitude SAMs, SHORADs, and radar guided AAA, then they are still very useful, even if they never fire a shot - their presence deters their enemy from flying a particular mission profile.
 
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Roman       6/15/2007 8:50:43 AM
Mechanic       6/14/2007 1:02:09 PM
An assault riffle/LMG can't be succesfuly used against a figther/attack aircraft period. I have had opportunity to be at the ground zero of simulated low level attack runs many times. If I ever find my self in similar situation but with live ammo I will direct my all and full efforts to get my self as much under ground as possible. There are always better places to hide and cover.
 
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Lawman       6/14/2007 5:33:20 PM
The reality is that lots of weapons can be used against helicopters, though most non-AA types are only really useful when the helo is at low level and low speed. A lucky shot against a helo is not that unusual, it really just depends on the type of helo, in terms of how much damage it will do. This was the lesson the UK learned (though arguably didn't learn very well) in the Falklands, when Gazelle light helos were shot at by infantry, causing fatalities for the crew, which wouldn't have happened (at least not as easily) on better protected helos.
 
As for fighters, as already mentioned, infantry weapons are not going to do anything useful. As for AA guns, it depends entirely on how they are aimed, and as such, what type they are. A manually aimed ZU-23-2 is probably close to useless, but in contrast, the ZSU-23-4 is very deadly against low flying fighters, especially slower ones. This was always the worry for NATO during the Cold War, when tank-killing fighters and attack aircraft would have to fly low and slow to get a lock using Mavericks (pre IIR Maverick days), making them bait for the Shilkas. Of course nowadays the fighters have much better weapons, and thus would almost never put themselves in range of such systems, but there is always still the risk. As part of an integrated air defence system, with medium/high altitude SAMs, SHORADs, and radar guided AAA, then they are still very useful, even if they never fire a shot - their presence deters their enemy from flying a particular mission profile.
 
I would have thought that even assault rifles and machine guns can shoot many kilometers high. Sure, at that height the accuracy is close to zero, but if the volume of fire is very high there could still be some non-zero effectiveness of
 
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Roman       6/17/2007 5:42:52 PM
I would have thought that even assault rifles and machine guns can shoot many kilometers high. Sure, at that height the accuracy is close to zero, but if the volume of fire is very high there could still be some non-zero effectiveness of that fire, no? Even if the bullets lose energy at their height, the high speed of aircraft would give them relative momentum.
 
I am also surprised that 'guided' (I presume by radar) AA guns are considered so effective. I would have thought them to be particularly vulnerable, since they have little range, yet are radar guarded, so can be detected from far away. Perhaps it would make sense to have them IR guided, no?
 
 
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murabit821       6/17/2007 7:12:48 PM
Zdar Roman

Some systems have only radars ZSU-23-4
some systems have only Opto-elektronic sensors (Slovensky BRAMS )
some systems have 2x Radars (Target and search) and Opto-elektronics (Tunguska, Skyguard)
somy systems have one radar and opto elektronics (CV90 AAV)
and Czech prototyp STROP II have mini Tamara detection system (plus opto-electronic)

 
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murabit821    Munition    6/17/2007 7:35:22 PM


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