Top Ten Warships of All Time- Miltary Channel

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Subject: Top Ten Warships of All Time- Miltary Channel
buzzard 5/30/2006 10:54:25 AM

OK, yesterday I caught part of this show on the Military Channel. It had, IMO a rather odd set of picks for the top ships in history. I really don't quite get how they made their evaluations. 1 Iowa Class battleships 2 Nimitz Carriers 3 Aegis Cruisers 4 Queen Elizabeth Battleships 5 Fletcher Destroyers 6 North Caroina Class 7 Essex Class carriers 8 Bismark 9 Graf Spee 10 Hood (!?!) Now I'm not sure of the order (precisely, though I know 1-4 are correct), and maybe they limited things to the 20th century (which seems like the only way this list could be excusable). I have to ask, what the hell were they thinking? The Hood did not even vaguely deserve to be on the list other than due to noteriety. The Bismark and Graf Spee were pretty much meaningless in effect. Why are there no submarines even on the list? So, given this rather strange list we are presented with, what would your choices be. For the sake of argument, let's limit things to 20th century. Since I chose this forum choice, why don't we stick to surface ships at that. buzzard

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Herald12345 1/25/2008 12:09:57 PM

If we are talking about revolutionary ships in the modern era than

#1 has to go to H.M.S. Dreadnaught; overnight entire navies around the world became obsolete. I give her a slight edge to my #2 selection due to a much longer service life.

USS South Carolina was designed and laid down FIRST.

#2 C.S.C. Virginia/USS Monitor With their battle off Hampton roads the arrival of the ironclads sent a loud message to the rest of the world that the day of wooden warships was over. Once again, overnight entire navies around the world became obsolete.

This was actually demonstrated armored ships versus each other and land batteries by variously the Koreans [turtle ships], the Japanese [armored rams], the British and the French [Crimean War] at least a century and a decade respectively before the USN and the CSN fought at Hampton Roads.

#3 Essex class Fleet Carriers they were the grandfather of the concept of the super carrier and were primarily responsible for the naval defeat of Japan.

I'll agree with that if you acknowledge that they were inspired by the Yorktowns.

#4 USS Nautilus the first nuclear boat, she changed submarine design forever.

Maybe.

#5 Ark Royal, this was the first aircraft carrier to have an armored flight deck, she took several bomb hits that caused minimal damage. After the war the US looked at this and included it in every post WW2 carrier built.

One in the belly, she turned turtle and sank. The only thing she taught the USN was to radically rework the anti-torpedo defense we used in our carriers and to worry a lot more about topweight, compartmentalization, and shock damage.

Herald

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the British Lion 1/25/2008 12:19:55 PM

"#1 has to go to H.M.S. Dreadnaught; overnight entire navies around the world became obsolete. I give her a slight edge to my #2 selection due to a much longer service life.

USS South Carolina was designed and laid down FIRST."

The HMS Dreadnought was laid down in October 1905, 14 months before the USS South Carolina.
As for which was designed first, I'll have to check that, but I'm pretty sure they were designed so close together it doesn't make too much difference.

B.L.

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Wicked Chinchilla 1/25/2008 12:30:35 PM

I genuinely have to heavily dispute your picking of the Ark Royal.

Armored flight decks, at that time, were bad, very very bad. There was a long an incredibly detailed thread on SP a few months ago about it detailing exactly why. The way the flight decks were implemented on a carrier during WWII hurt the carrier far more than it helped.

The only reason modern aircraft carriers have armored flight decks is an engineering trick that allows them to be armored without compromising the structure/integrity of the carrier. This trick was not known in WWII. I am REALLY curious as to what it actually is, but in the thread no one could, or did, say because it is STILL classified.

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Herald12345 1/25/2008 1:01:53 PM

"#1 has to go to H.M.S.
Dreadnaught; overnight entire navies around the world became obsolete.
I give her a slight edge to my #2 selection due to a much longer
service life.

USS South Carolina

HMS Dreadnought.

Stand corrected.

NYT article describing the American history.

Satsuma Class.

To back up that wiki article.

NYT article Satsuma class.

NYT article 2 Satsuma class.

Herald

Herald

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larryjcr all or nothing armor 2/6/2008 2:14:10 AM

I'd almost have to go with categories rather than specific ships. When it gets down to it, the Richelieu could of taken the spot that belongs to the Bismarck. Both were extremely fast for their time and well gunned. Both only put armor where it counted and left soft spots all over where realistically practical to shave weight. The Bismarck was simply a big battle-cruiser - hardly revolutionary really - while the Richelieu was a true revolution in Battleship design. The Richelieu was unique in its all or nothing armor face and would of presented a relatively small silhouette while simultaneously able to fire full broadsides up to 250 degrees of arc. What other battleship could charge headon and aim its full suite - let alone eight 15-inchers - while doing so?

Actually, the 'all or nothing' armor philosophy (and it was called exactly that) was introduced in the US Navy prior to WWI. The first ships to feature it were the OKLAHOMA class battleships, and all later US BBs went that was.

My list would include:

HMS DREADNAUGHT -- obvious reasons

HMS SWIFT -- first really large destroyer, largest DD and fastest ship in the RN for all of WWI, with distinguished

combat record. Given a 6-inch gun on refit (largest gun EVER put on a RN DD. The Germans

REALLY didn't like meeting her in the dark.

IJNS FUBUKI -- first 'special type' DD. So good that the USN and RN were playing catch up until about 1944.

USS ENTERPRISE (CV6) -- probably the best service record of ANY WWII warship of ANY country.

USS ENTERPRISE (CVN65) -- first nuclear carrier.

IJNS ZUIKAKU -- probably in more battles than any other carrier of WWII. ALL major actions except Midway.

USS NAUTILUS -- first nuclear submarine.

USS HELENA -- survived two major surface actions off Guadelcanal without serious damage, including the First Battle

of Guadelcanal, the most savage surface action of WWII. Bow replaced after it was blown off at

Pearl Harbor. Came off again when she took torpedos at the Battle of Kula Gulf. That time she

was sunk.

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larryjcr South Carolina - Dradnaught 2/6/2008 2:33:27 AM

"#1 has to go to H.M.S.
Dreadnaught; overnight entire navies around the world became obsolete.
I give her a slight edge to my #2 selection due to a much longer
service life.

The two South Carolina's were designed and authorized before Dreadnaught (which was in fact built in an amazingly short time and completed first by about three years.) Both were the result on proposals to go to an 'all-big-gun armament that had been discussed since the mid- 1890s. Dreadnaught was certainly the more important historically, but the gun layout of the RN ship was extremely inefficient compared to the USN design. Although Dreadnaught carried two more 12" guns, the South Carolina could match or exceed it in number of tubes that could be aimed at any baring. The four turret (two superfiring) became the standard layout of battleship main armament for all navies by the end of WWI.

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Polynkes 4/28/2008 4:18:52 AM

I think everyone is missing the point here. This is a discussion is on Warships with actual combat records. Thus the Hood and many others are poor choices given their performances. For battleships the simple choice is the South Dakota and respected ships of the class. Their combat records FAR surpass all ships except carriers. How do choose the Hood or Bismark given the lack of combat victory? Not to mention the South Dakota class were the absolute king until the Iowa came to service. More survivable, better fire control and the same exact guns the Iowa had. 1 v 1 the South Dakota handles easily the Hood and Bismark. Yamato is a joke with all hype and no performance.

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eldnah 4/28/2008 10:49:59 AM

Sorry, the South Dakota's had essentially the same gun as the North Carolina's and Colorado's that preceded them a 16"/45 cal. gun. The Iowa's had a clearly superior 16 "/50 cal. weapon.

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Herald12345 4/28/2008 11:37:13 AM

My list would include:

HMS DREADNAUGHT -- obvious reasons

HMS SWIFT -- first really large destroyer, largest DD and fastest ship in the RN for all of WWI, with distinguished

combat record. Given a 6-inch gun on refit (largest gun EVER put on a RN DD. The Germans

REALLY didn't like meeting her in the dark.

IJNS FUBUKI -- first 'special type' DD. So good that the USN and RN were playing catch up until about 1944.

USS ENTERPRISE (CV6) -- probably the best service record of ANY WWII warship of ANY country.

USS ENTERPRISE (CVN65) -- first nuclear carrier.

IJNS ZUIKAKU -- probably in more battles than any other carrier of WWII. ALL major actions except Midway.

USS NAUTILUS -- first nuclear submarine.

USS HELENA -- survived two major surface actions off Guadelcanal without serious damage, including the First Battle

of Guadelcanal, the most savage surface action of WWII. Bow replaced after it was blown off at

Pearl Harbor. Came off again when she took torpedos at the Battle of Kula Gulf. That time she

was sunk.

Incorrect.

Zuikaku was at Pearl Harbor, but not at Midway, nor during the Doolittle Raid, which WAS a carrier action akin to Pearl Harbor. Zuikaku did not survive Leyte Gulf which means she was not off Okinawa when Enterprise was and when she participated in the final fleet action against Yamato. So the record for carrier versus carrier or in total number of naval engagements goes to ENTERPRISE.

The Fubukis were over-matched by the Fletchers in 1942. Better ASW, better AAW, and after SAMAR nobody could doubt the Fletchers at all in ASuW.

Best destroyer ever at the time it was introduced.

Herald

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Polynkes 4/28/2008 7:48:26 PM

My mistake, i forgot the Iowa had the larger guns. Aside from one wrong comment which was highlighted no argument either for or against the South Dakota and her sisters?

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