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Subject: Origins of Our Republic
CJH    6/12/2010 3:19:43 PM
Polybius On Political Constitutions This is about the most lucid and comprehensive description I have read. I have read that our nation's founders were influenced by these thoughts of Polybius when they put together the constitution. Polybius gives insight on the difference between democracy and republican government.
 
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CJH    Does this describe our situation now in any way?   6/12/2010 3:22:43 PM
 
 
"18    And as long as any survive who have had experience of oligarchical supremacy and domination, they regard their present constitution as a blessing, and hold equality and freedom as of the utmost value. But as soon as a new generation has arisen, and the democracy has descended to their children's children, long association weakens their value for equality and freedom, and some seek to become more powerful than the ordinary citizens; and the most liable to this temptation are the rich. So when they begin to be fond of office, and find themselves unable to obtain it by their own unassisted efforts and their own merits, they ruin their estates, while enticing and corrupting the common people in every possible way. By which means when, in their senseless mania for reputation, they have made the populace ready and greedy to receive bribes, the virtue of democracy is destroyed, and it is transformed into a government of violence and the strong hand. For the mob, habituated to feed at the expense of others, and to have its hopes of a livelihood in the property of its neighbors, as soon as it has got a leader sufficiently ambitious and daring, being excluded by poverty from the sweets of civil honors, produces a reign of mere violence. Then come tumultuous assemblies, massacres, banishments, redivisions of land; until, after losing all trace of civilization, it has once more found a master and a despot."
 
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PlatypusMaximus    Patrick Henry   6/12/2010 9:29:48 PM
[SNIP]... Compare that little spot, nurtured by liberty, with the fairest country in the world. Does not Holland possess a powerful navy and army, and a full treasury ? They did not acquire these by debasing the principles and trampling on the rights of their citizens. Sir, they acquired these by their industry, economy, and by the freedom of their government. Their commerce is the most extensive in Europe; their credit is unequalled; their felicity will be an eternal monument of the blessings of liberty; every nation in Europe is taught by them what they are, and what they ought to be. The contrast between those nations and this happy people, is the most splendid spectacle for republicans, the greatest cause of exultation and triumph to the sons of freedom. While other nations, precipitated by the rage of ambition or folly, have, in the pursuit of the most magnificent projects, riveted the fetters of bondage on themselves and their descendants, these republicans have secured their political happiness and freedom. Where is there a nation to be compared to them? Where is there now, or where was there ever a nation, of so small a territory, and so few in number, so powerful, so wealthy, so happy ? What is the cause of this superiority ? Liberty, sir, the freedom of their government. Though they are now unhappily in some degree consolidated, yet they have my acclamations, when put in contrast with those millions of their fellow-men who lived and died slaves. The dangers of a consolidation ought to be guarded against in this country. I shall exert my poor talents to ward them off....
 
{SNIP]....yet I hope the example of Holland will tell us that we can live happily without changing our present despised government. Cannot people be as happy under a mild, as under an energetic government? Cannot content and felicity be enjoyed in a republic, as well as in a monarchy, because there are whips, chains and scourges used in the latter ? If I am not as rich as my neighbor, if I give my mite, my all, republican forbearance will say, that it is sufficient. So said the honest confederates of Holland : " You are poor; we are rich. We will go on and do better, far better, than be under an oppressive government." Far better will it be for us to continue as we are, than go under that tight, energetic government. I am persuaded of what the honorable gentleman says, that separate confederacies will ruin us. In my judgment, they are evils never to be thought of till a people are driven by necessity. When he asks my opinion of consolidation, of one power to reign over America, with a strong hand, I will tell him I am persuaded of the rectitude of my honorable friend's opinion, (Mr. Mason,) that one government cannot reign over so extensive a country as this is, without absolute despotism. Compared to such a consolidation, small confederacies are little evils, though they ought to bo recurred to but in case of necessity. Virginia and North Carolina are despised. They could exist separated from the rest of America. Maryland and Vermont were not overrun when out of the confederacy. Though it is not a desirable object, yet, I trust, that on examination it will be found, that Virginia and North Carolina would not be swallowed up in case it was necessary for them to be joined together.

When we come to the spirit of domestic peace, the humble genius of Virginia lias formed a government, suitable to the genius of her people. I believe the hands that formed the American constitution, triumph in the experiment. It proves that the man who formed it, and perhaps by accident, did what design could not do in other parts of the world. After all your reforms in government, unless you consult the genius of the inhabitants, you will never succeed; your system can have no duration. Let me appeal to the candor of the committee, if the want of money be not the source of all misfortunes. We cannot be blamed for not making dollars. This want of money cannot be supplied by changes in government. The only possible remedy, as I have before asserted, is industry aided by economy. Compare the genius of the people with the government of this country. Let me remark, that it stood the severest conflict, during the war, to which human virtne has ever been called. I call upon every gentleman here to declare, whether the King of England had any subjects so attached to his family and government—so loyal as we were. But the genius of Virginia called us for liberty; called us from those beloved endearments which, from long habits, we were taught to love and revere. We entertained from our earliest infancy, the most sincere regard and re

 
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CJH       6/19/2010 2:15:31 PM
I can't argue with his logic here ( Of course many have said that we could not have prevailed had not France helped us).
 
But Alexander Hamilton would have and probably did.
 
I have read that Hamilton's concern was for the future security of the people particularly as dependent upon a commerce favored and aided by the republican system as embodied in the federal government constitution.
 
 
 
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