Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Naval Air Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: British or other NATO nations carrier
french stratege    2/27/2007 9:11:12 PM
I was always surprised that Britain put so few emphasis in get real carriers while its navy has a confortable budget. A 40 000/60 000 t conventional carrier is not so expensive (about 2/2,5 B€) so two SSN or 5 frigates, and even if planes are shared with airforce (to get the same budget for planes), having 18 normal fighter of board for normal operation and twice (complement coming from air force for example if a bigger set of navalized aircraft have been pooled between services like it is today in UK) make it and invaluable asset for power projection in absence of land bases or for air protection of a fleet. After all 20 fighters is 1600 m€ with ammunitions and midlife refit.Adding two E2C push this to 2100 m€ so the price of the carrier it self. I remember that british carriers were not replaced beginning of seventies due to cold war and thinking that air force and missiles would do the job and that carrier were only preys for tactical nuking. IS it the British view? However 1982 made people remember that other threats exists. Why British did not build conventional carrier since , and why other nations like Italians or Spanish (who have already F18C) do not try to while it should fit in their budget? What are views of readers of these nations? I can answer for France: we should have replaced our two carriers but post cold war budget reduction after 1994 cancelled CDG sistership in a time we have to build 4 SSBN which cost each more than a carrier. And since 2003 Chirac has leaved financing to its successor. An additional fact is that left does not like carriers as seen as a tool for colonial policy and offense and not a defense tool. An other fact is that air force do not like competition of navy and ground army is the senior service in France. However still we used to have two real carriers and not UK which is rather surprising.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
EssexBoy    UK Carriers   2/28/2007 2:28:42 PM
FS
 
If you would like to read a detailed account of the loss of "real" aircraft carriers from the RN in the 60s/70s take a look at:
 
http:navy-matters.beedall.com/cva01.htm
 
To put it briefly, the Royal Navy lobbied hard in the late 50s/early 60s for replacements for the carrier fleet. However, they insisted on asking for carriers in the 50,000 - 55,000 Tonne range as they had grave reservations about smaller carriers (limited airgroup, restrictions on type of aircraft operated, difficulties operating in rough seas, poor accident rate). They also suffered from a bad case of hubris; they regarded themselves as a global power and wanted carriers to match that status. Consequently, when in 63 there was political backing for a (relatively) cheap 40,000 Tonne carrier the RN turned it down flat.
 
After that things went a bit pear shaped. The UK economy went into another one of its post-war financial crisis and the new Labour government decided to cut defence expenditure by (I think) about 20%. The replacement carriers were an ideal target as it was perceived at the time that the UK would not be operating independantly out of area.
 
The RN then tried to revive the smaller carrier design but the government wouldn't spend millions on carriers the RN had previously said were unacceptable.Consequently, the RN was re-configured to counter the Soviet threat in the North Atlantic. (The RAF were also stuffed as first TSR2 and then the proposed F111 purchase were cancelled).
 
The financial position of the UK deteriorated even further in the 1970s (I would imagine it would be hard for anyone under 35 now to remember how bad things were then) and in 1981 the (Conservative) government decided to make even deeper cuts to the RN. The RN was only saved from becoming a fisheries protection fleet by the actions of Gen Galtieri & Co.
 
After the collapse of the Soviet Union there were a couple of defence reviews that didn't really take any hard decisions about the balance of forces the UK required and the level of defence expenditure needed to create and sustain them. Instead all three services suffered cut-backs as the government cashed-in the peace dividend.
 
At some point in the early to mid 90s the RN/Mod started to consider how they should replace the Invincible class ships. Initially, the plan was to replace them with similar sized class but they soon started thinking about more capable ships of up to 40,000 Tonnes. The 1998 Strategic defence review confirmed the requirement for more capable ships (the RN wanted ships that could handle an airgroup of about 46) and the proposed designs became larger and more expensive just as the defence budget was being cut to about 2.3% and the GWOT started.
 
So this is the current situation; the UK's public finances are about $10bn in the red, the politically untouchable NHS is spending money as if there were no tomorrow, no government can raise taxes any further, and the existing defence budget is stretched to the limit by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The RN has accepted severe cuts in its escort fleet in return for the promise of two large carriers. Being a cynical old bastard I doubt they'll get them.
 
I know a lot of people here hate "what ifs" but .... what if the RN had gone for the 40,000 Tonne carriers when they had political backing? We would have kept some sort of carrier capability (flying upgraded Jaguar Ms perhaps?);we would probably have joined the Rafale programme (identical requirement with the French) and bought F15s for the RAF for UK air-defence ie not wasted billions on the Typhoon; and the RN would have been in a better position to push for more capable carriers to replace the 40,000 Tonne class.
 
(FS - I was little surprised you haven't posted on AdamB's latest thread on the UK board, I was looking forward to one of your rants) :-)
 
Quote    Reply

rayott34       5/2/2007 3:54:07 AM
I think that the view of a carrier as strictly offensive and their cost are the two main reasons why many nations (Europe and elsewhere) don’t get into the whole carrier thing.  Yes, some nations are getting into them (China India, etc) but the nations that are getting into them (A) have a big enough economy to afford them and (B) don’t mind culturally spending their nations scarce recourses on a offensive military.  Germany/Italy/Spain/Canada and others could maybe afford them, (though Canada would have to up funding for the military a lot, but the economy is big enough if it were a priority) but don’t view themselves empire builders or war mongers. 

Seriously, if the new German PM gave a speech and said that Germany needs to either raise taxes or cut domestic/welfare spending in order to afford a couple of carriers and their war planes, how many people in Germany would really support that?  People would say, were spending all this money for a carrier that will do what?  Bomb who?  I just dont think that they consider it a priority. 
 
Quote    Reply



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics