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Subject: Joint US and French Naval Operations
DarthAmerica    1/8/2008 5:24:46 AM
Could anyone imagine a scenario where US and French interest were both sufficiently threatened that the USA would allow squadrons of Rafales and E-2s to deploy on a USN CVN to conduct combat operations supported by the USN? -DA
 
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keensetofpeepers       1/9/2008 11:46:54 PM
it certainly could happen, but i doubt it would. as usajoe and i said before, anything that's serious enough, we'd probably do ourselves. if the French want in, they'd be doing it b/c they couldn't afford to be seen as doing nothing (so it'd probably be a situation involving one of her former colonies). the thing is, if it's a situation that the Fr. can't afford to be seen as doing nothing, it's more likely that they'd want to be seen as operating "independently"....i can see a situation where they'd send Mirage/Rafales and tankers to a nearby base, or at most get tanker support from USAF or USN assets.....i believe that in a maritime conflict situation (thus US decks nearby) where Fr leadership is seriously considering air strikes as an option, the only serious options they'll consider is have Fr air force conduct the strike, or do nothing and let US take care of the problem. as their marine air is so much smaller than their air force, they simply have more flexibility with going with the air force.

Phaid, that's interesting news if its true about the Fr thinking about sending a squadron to operate with Ike. however, there's problem here as well. while i don't necessarily agree with usajoe's belief that US planes > Fr planes, there's interoperability issues involved if we're talking joint operations with the US naval air, not to mention maintenance/logistics. moreover, the Ike will be going into a combat zone, and with the situation with Iran right now in the Persian Gulf, they will want everyone trained up and razor sharp for this deployment. a US navy battle group commander isn't likely to accept a group of people who haven't trained with them in US navy tactics (or any tactics) for an extended amount of time in a combat zone. the possibility further declines when one considers that a Rafale squadron on the Ike must necessarily displace a Hornet squadron, so not only would a battle group commander have to accommodate a group of people who may be somewhat unfamiliar with US SOP, but he'd lose a valuable group trained, familiar, and experienced with US SOP and this particular airwing/battlegroup in particular. not gonna happen. on a political note, while the Fr are our allies, i doubt that they'd want to be caught in a compromising situation between US and Iranian forces if shooting started, which i dont think will happen, but serious minded Fr and US analysts must consider this possibility. i can see the Fr as wanting to do this more, since with CdG holed up, it's a way for them to keep their pilots carrier qualified, but with a hostile situation, this probably won't happen.

could this happen in a quieter AO, say the 6th Fleet in the Med or 2nd Fleet in the Atlantic? perhaps. however, if we're talking squadron sized operations for extended amount of time (weeks), then the Fr would have to bring in logistics personnel and spare parts, and it becomes a potential maintenance nightmare. this is why other than the occasional traps that the US lets the Fr pilots do, we probably won't see Fr marine air conduct extended operations off US decks in the near future.

 
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Herald12345    Objectives noted.   1/10/2008 12:01:00 AM
French line crews would accompany their aircraft. US storage will handle  French  munitions. US DUMB munitions can be dropped off Squalls, if necessary, presumably once US bomb techs get hold of those birds. Since the French use US launch and arrestor technology, landing systems and basically use AMERICAN SOP in deckhandling on the CdG, interoperability will be less a problem than imagined.

And if worse comes to worse, the Rafales can land at Kuwait and a Marine carrier qualified Hornet squadron can come aboard ship.

Its not that big a deal.

Herald

 
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Phaid       1/11/2008 5:23:21 PM
Well, logistics and capacity on our carriers are simply not the issue they are being made out to be.

The US CVNs are more than sufficiently large to accommodate another dozen strike fighters without displacing any of its own air wing.  We currently operate about 75 aircraft, in the 80s we operated over 90, and many of them were much larger than today's.

The logistics issue is certainly not insurmountable.  French maintenance and armament personnel will be handling the Rafales in any case, peacetime or no.  And while the French CV is in drydock, their underway replenishment ships aren't.  So there is really no major obstacle to maintaining their aircraft and keeping them armed.

As far as 5th Fleet, there are other areas it operates besides the Persian Gulf.  Like, say, off Pakistan to fly missions into Afghanistan.

Anyway, as I said, JTFEX 08-2 will feature Rafales on the Roosevelt.  I haven't seen any U.S. confirmation about the Ike cruise, but I won't be surprised when it happens.

 
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keensetofpeepers       1/14/2008 6:21:15 PM

you have argued that it's theoretically feasible to load a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier, but you have not argued the practicality or likelihood of this happening. logistics IS A BIG DEAL. i'm in the Army, which is admittedly a different service branch, but anybody who's in the military will tell you they spend more time worrying about logistics and maintenance than actual warfighting functions like trigger pulling or dropping bombs. i ask again: why would the US Navy agree to this? other than a feel-good we're all in this together allied jointness sake, which can be achieved a lot more easily by having Fr army units or Fr air force units operate with their US counterparts than flying a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier and loading all the necessary spare parts, personnel, etc, in a combat situation, which is just a nightmare not just logistically but also operationally (integrating the Fr pilots into their SOPs, flight schedules, CAP, etc etc). Training exercise is one thing, combat situation is a whole different ballpark. and the USN SOPs i'm talking about are things like combat tactics, fleet air defense, CAP support, air support for surface action units (future USN vessels approached by Iranian gunboats)....things that a French squadron would be unfamiliar with without extended training as part of a Carrier Air Wing and a battle group.

i just don't see this happening without some kind of political intervention on a ministerial or even presidential level. it's definitely possible, just as it's possible for Liv Tyler to come to my house with pizza and snuggle with me. is it likely? no
 
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Herald12345       1/14/2008 6:39:18 PM


you have argued that it's theoretically feasible to load a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier, but you have not argued the practicality or likelihood of this happening. logistics IS A BIG DEAL. i'm in the Army, which is admittedly a different service branch, but anybody who's in the military will tell you they spend more time worrying about logistics and maintenance than actual warfighting functions like trigger pulling or dropping bombs. i ask again: why would the US Navy agree to this? other than a feel-good we're all in this together allied jointness sake, which can be achieved a lot more easily by having Fr army units or Fr air force units operate with their US counterparts than flying a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier and loading all the necessary spare parts, personnel, etc, in a combat situation, which is just a nightmare not just logistically but also operationally (integrating the Fr pilots into their SOPs, flight schedules, CAP, etc etc). Training exercise is one thing, combat situation is a whole different ballpark. and the USN SOPs i'm talking about are things like combat tactics, fleet air defense, CAP support, air support for surface action units (future USN vessels approached by Iranian gunboats)....things that a French squadron would be unfamiliar with without extended training as part of a Carrier Air Wing and a battle group.

i just don't see this happening without some kind of political intervention on a ministerial or even presidential level. it's definitely possible, just as it's possible for Liv Tyler to come to my house with pizza and snuggle with me. is it likely? no

Herald12345    Objectives noted.   1/10/2008 12:01:00 AM
French line crews would accompany their aircraft. US storage will handle  French  munitions. US DUMB munitions can be dropped off Squalls, if necessary, presumably once US bomb techs get hold of those birds. Since the French use US launch and arrestor technology, landing systems and basically use AMERICAN SOP in deckhandling on the CdG, interoperability will be less a problem than imagined.

And if worse comes to worse, the Rafales can land at Kuwait and a Marine carrier qualified Hornet squadron can come aboard ship.

Its not that big a deal.

Herald

Asked and answered.

Herald
 
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keensetofpeepers       1/16/2008 6:06:08 PM




you have argued that it's theoretically feasible to load a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier, but you have not argued the practicality or likelihood of this happening. logistics IS A BIG DEAL. i'm in the Army, which is admittedly a different service branch, but anybody who's in the military will tell you they spend more time worrying about logistics and maintenance than actual warfighting functions like trigger pulling or dropping bombs. i ask again: why would the US Navy agree to this? other than a feel-good we're all in this together allied jointness sake, which can be achieved a lot more easily by having Fr army units or Fr air force units operate with their US counterparts than flying a squadron of Rafales onto a US carrier and loading all the necessary spare parts, personnel, etc, in a combat situation, which is just a nightmare not just logistically but also operationally (integrating the Fr pilots into their SOPs, flight schedules, CAP, etc etc). Training exercise is one thing, combat situation is a whole different ballpark. and the USN SOPs i'm talking about are things like combat tactics, fleet air defense, CAP support, air support for surface action units (future USN vessels approached by Iranian gunboats)....things that a French squadron would be unfamiliar with without extended training as part of a Carrier Air Wing and a battle group.

i just don't see this happening without some kind of political intervention on a ministerial or even presidential level. it's definitely possible, just as it's possible for Liv Tyler to come to my house with pizza and snuggle with me. is it likely? no





Herald12345
   Objectives noted.   1/10/2008 12:01:00 AM

French
line crews would accompany their aircraft. US storage will handle 
French  munitions.
US DUMB munitions can be dropped off Squalls, if
necessary, presumably once US bomb techs get hold of those birds. Since
the French use US launch and arrestor technology, landing systems and
basically use AMERICAN SOP in deckhandling
on the CdG, interoperability
will be less a problem than imagined.

And if worse comes to
worse, the Rafales can land at Kuwait and a Marine carrier qualified
Hornet squadron can come aboard ship.

Its not that big a deal.

Herald

Asked and answered.

Herald

Just because you put words in bold doesn't mean you've addressed the issues properly. i get the feeling we're talking about 2 different scenarios. what you're talking about (worst comes worst, have the Rafales land in Kuwait) seems to use a US carrier as merely a pit stop...have the Rafales land, refuel/rearm, and then take off for another base. what i'm talking about, and what I believe is the intent behind the OP's question, is how likely we'll see Rafales operate off a US carrier for extended period of time (2+ weeks) in a combat zone.

you say CdG and Rafales use US catapults, arresting gear, etc. I accept that. I never disputed that. Interoperability was never in question. However, interoperability only means that joint operations could happen. The capability exists. In theory Rafales could operate off US decks. What you need to make joint operations actually happen goes far beyond the theoretical. You need political/military motivation and will. Basically, you need a good reason for this to happen. While the Fr don't have to do much to make this happen, the USN and the battlegroup in question will have to make a good deal of accommodations to make this a reality (integration into flight schedule, familiarization with US standard operating procedures and combat tactics, etc etc ), and on top of it all they will be steaming into harm's way. I don't question that it is possible for Rafales to operate off US decks. What I question is how practical this is. I can see the Fr asking USN if they could do some carrier quals for their pilots when a carrier is transiting through the Med or eastern Atlantic. What I can't see is a squadron of Rafales operating off a US deck in a combat zone for extended peri
 
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benellim4       2/6/2008 11:26:06 AM
 
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benellim4       2/6/2008 11:31:01 AM
 
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eldnah       2/6/2008 5:28:55 PM
The US Navy for budgetary reasons has chosen to reduce the size of its air wings. There is more than enough deck, storage, crew etc. space to operate another squadron of aircraft on board. Adding another type would be no more complex than if F-14s continued to operate with the mix of types we have today. My understanding was the French were going to have a squadron or two plus support staff operating, not in a combat role, from US carriers when the CdG was going to drydocked for about 18 months to maintain aircrew proficiency. I believe if the Brits were to build the CVF's with catapults and arresting gear it was planned to train naval aviators on the CVN's to expedite operational capability of the new carriers. But by then the US & GB would both be using F-35Cs.
 
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ambush       2/6/2008 6:27:49 PM
 

 Does France have more Naval Aircraft than carrier space? Does the U.S. really have shortage of carrier capable aircraft?

 I can only foresee it happening in a situation similar to the Kolwezi operation in 1978. The US lacking a political spinal column back then limited it support of that operation to providing transport aircraft for French Paratroopers.

Let us say that we have a Naval Air version of Kolwezi. France?s carriers are laid up for maintenance/repair or are otherwise committed. The US unwilling to risk US lives over a combat zone inland or engage in direct combat agrees to park a carrier offshore and allow the French to operate aircraft from it.

 
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