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Subject: SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof
SGTObvious    8/7/2003 9:29:04 AM
Why would someone want to "prove" their faith? Why would a Supreme Diety want people to Doubt? Why does a benevolent God tolerate Evil?" Wouldn't it be easy, if you were an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent diety, to simply announce, in clear and easy to understand terms, in every human language and to all humans simultaneously, "Here are the rules and I will kill every transgressor starting NOW who violates any of them."? But nobody's perfect, you say, we'd all violate the rules, and we'd all be killed. Right? No. We ARE perfect- at least, we can be. If There was an armed policemen standing next to you with pistol drawn, and you truly, absolutely beleived that the very next time you sinned, he would empty his magazine into your head, then you would be utterly without sin for the rest of your very nervous life. When a priest pedophile molests a child, he does not do in plain view of the child's father. Yet, if you asked an admitted pedophile priest, did you do this in the sight of God, he would admit, Yes, I did. Why would a priest commit an act in the sight of god but not in the sight of a mere human being? Because no matter what he says, no matter how deeply he has studied scripture, there is doubt. He just does not BELEIVE in God the same way he BELEIVES the six foot, two hundred pound guy with the cute little alter boy son will beat the stuffing out of him if he saw the priest ever touch the child. And God wants it that way. Good and Evil are things we have to find, learn about, and experience, no matter that the lessons are harsh. This is the lesson of the HIGHLY Metaphorical and not at all literal Genesis. It is the First Moral Lesson of the Bible, and there is a good reason for its being first. Summed up, it is: You will go from ignorant bliss to knowing Good from Evil, and it won't be pleasant. Humans learn Evil by giving in to the temptation of Evil- the serpent (Satan) did nothing wrong, it merely acted to its nature. Eve did nothing wrong- having no knowledge of Good and Evil beforehand, all she knew was "this guy says no, the serpent says yes, what's the difference between the two?". We have to learn it the hard way, there is no other way. God laments, over Humans learning Good from Evil "He has become like us", that is, become a heavenly being by learning of Morality. To Learn Good from Evil, the temptation must exist. The punishment must not be so certain and so strongly beleived that the temptation is powerless. In order for the temptation to have any power and effect, in order for us to Learn, God must allow himself to be doubted. If he was as real and evident as the armed policeman above, no temptation would be strong enough. So, a religion that offers or claims proof of its own mythology undermines its own moral agenda. Some people beleive that without the threat/promise of religion, we will not behave in a moral way. This is nonsense. Anyone who lived through 9-11 knows the truth. Around New York City, in the aftermath of the attack, people rallied to help in the most amazing ways. People gave blood and goods and money, they swarmed down to the site to lend physical effort, they baked cookies and ran their restaurants to provide free food for the crews. Music students played for tired national guardsmen while professional massage therapists provided their services to the men for free. The "evil" corporations like Coca Cola and McDonalds, and even Volvo, sent their trucks to the front. All of this was an automatic human response, without any directive, call, request or sermon. With no religious motivation, this was one of the most, if not the most, powerful acts of mass good the world has ever seen, and in a place the world least expected to see it. Meanwhile, the humans who pepetrated the act of gross evil that took the lives of 3000, they were the ones acting in accordance with religious directives. So why have religion at all? Can we not just have ethics and morality? We could. A benevolent God would not only tolerate this, but favor it. Think about it, its pretty obnvious from an ethical standpoint. Would you be prouder of your own children, contemplating doign an act of good, saying "we should do this because Dad wants us to" or "we should do this because its the right thing to do."? But its not likely to happen. Religion puts power into certain people who want that power to themselves. Trust in those religous leaders who have the will to say, "I'm not sure, and I can't prove it, but I beleive..." The wicked ones not to trust are the ones who say "This is the proven word of God". How can I resolutely believe in a faith which I doubt? It's what we have to do as humans, neither angels nor animals, and when we do it, it's a miracle.
 
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Zerbrechen    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof   8/8/2003 2:19:03 AM
Sarge touches on crime prevention theory here. The CERTAINTY, CELARITY and SEVERITY of punishment is what prevents crime. Basically, the more certain that you will be caught, the swiftness of the sentence to be carried out, and severity of the sentence all factor into discouraging people from committing crimes (Sarges "cop with a gun" example). All is fine when looking at rational, thinking people. Is evil a conscious choice, though? What if a person was brought up knowing no other way than the law of the jungle - seek pleasure, avoid pain. Or also consider the mentally handicapped. For another true test of Religion... If a person so strongly believes that when a person dies he/she goes to Heaven, is it really evil for him to kill as many people as possible to get them to paradise sooner? Let's even go as far to say that he only kills those of his particular religion, and truly good-hearted people. Anyone want to go on record saying he's truly helping people? I admit, I'm one who wants to be slapped in the face with the evidence in order to believe something. I also find faith to be a product of one's environment. On a night shift, I start to lose my faith in humanity altogether. On a day shift, I begin to realize that there are people who will wave to me with ALL their fingers.
 
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ghettovet    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof   8/20/2003 9:48:26 AM
Great post once again Sarge!! Tavita says "comprehensive answers to all your spiritual questions" I think (correct me if i am wrong sarge) that what sarge was saying is that NO ONE can provide COMPREHENSIVE answers to spiritual questions. Anyone who claims they can, without reservation, is just not being honest with himself or the people he is ministering. In my humble opinion, religion began as a way to make large groups of people behave in a certain way. By a certain set of rules. This in turn created a profitable situation for the ones at the top of this chain. THe best way to get someone to walk a straight line is to threaten them with something they can neither see nor proove to be false. In other words eternal damnation. If you covet thy neighbors wife, then the mighty man in the sky will cast you into the lake of fire. This seems a little far fetched to me, but several thousand years ago people would believe anything. Still do in some cases. People have even created splinter religions to loosen the rules of their religions which they consider too extreme. Examples are consumption of alcohol and clergy getting married. If they can play fast and loose with the rules of their own gods teachings, then obviously, as sarge said, their faith was not unshakable to start with.
 
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Final Historian    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof   9/29/2003 1:29:57 PM
Good points Sarge. A clear and precise way of examining why God is never going to say to us: "Here I AM". Ghettovet: Good points there as well, something that is often overlooked between the Protestant vs Catholic debate is the economic issue. The Catholic Church said you shouldn't be rich, it would prevent you from going to heaven. Protestant leaders on the other hand said that being rich was a sign of favor from God. Who was right? Neither, actually, in that people would become Protestants if they were rich because it would salve their conscious and tell them they could still, perhaps, get to heaven. And the prohibition against being rich and living it for Catholics didn't seem to apply to nobility and Church leaders. BTW, Don't take this as a statement against Protestants, I have many friends who are such and quite sincere in their faith. But you must always examine history to see why you have come to where you are today. Such is especially the case with religion. God wants us to do the right thing not because he said we have to, but because it IS the right thing to do.
 
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jastayme3    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof   4/28/2004 2:10:56 PM
Catholic Church said you shouldn't be rich, it would prevent you from going to heaven. Protestant leaders on the other hand said that being rich was a sign of favor from God. Who w ........................................ As so often that is a simplistic description. Both sects disapprove of making wealth a priority. And the Catholics have historically been more uncomfortable with commerce(though most of the features of the modern capitalist system were invented by Catholics; city folk in the 1400's). Wealth can be a reward from God. Or it might be a responsibility assigned by God(a healthier way for a rich man to look at it). Or it might be simply the mysterious will of Unkowable Providance and all that. It might even be a punishment(remember that guy who turned everything he touched to gold, including his daughter when he touched her accidently; a very apt fable). You never can tell. I have often imagined that when I get to heaven I will find that the greatest reward will go to the janitor of some obscure church in a town nobody heard of.
 
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jastayme3    RE:SGTObvious Manifesto 1, Religion and Proof   4/28/2004 2:16:30 PM
It might even be a punishment(remember that guy who turned everything he touc ..................................... The "Emperors Winding Sheet" has Constantine the last emperor of Byzantium say that he had plotted and conspired in his youth to become Emperor and that God had punished him by giving him what he wanted-just as the Turks were coming.
 
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chemist    Let's have fun with archenar   5/24/2004 5:46:09 AM
Trying to annoy archenar. I bet he wrote his 'Islam is supported by science' screed in response to these. Since he punished us for that I see no reason to be nice in return.
 
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ilpars    Constantine, reward or punishment - jastayme3   5/27/2004 6:21:44 AM
Constantine was a great man. He overjudged himself. It was his destiny to bring an epic end to an epic story. The story of Byzantium. I believe his destiny was a reward not a punishment. His name will be remembered to eternity.
 
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jastayme3    RE:Constantine, reward or punishment - jastayme3   5/19/2006 11:28:08 PM
Constantine was a great man. He overjudged himself. It was his destiny to bring an epic end to an epic story. The story of Byzantium. I believe his destiny was a reward not a punishment. His name will be remembered to eternity. _______________________________ It was both a reward and a punishment. And yes I do sound like a Russian author here. Unfortunately I couldn't do that sort of thing properly, but the writer of the book I referred to managed it.
 
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