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Subject: What is Victory
Final Historian    5/4/2004 9:44:33 PM
I have a question for everyone here. What is Victory? I mean, in the sense of the "war on terror". How will we know when we have won? Can we win? What metrics do we use?
 
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ilpars    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 2:50:53 AM
I would like to ask a question related to the subject. Did allies really won the WW1? If it was a victory why they had to fight much more bloody WW2 against Germany? On the other hand WW2 was a true victory. None of the defeated countries seeked another war. So, what were the differences between 2? I believe if we can claerly define an answer for this question. It will be more easy to answer the original one.
 
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Elbandeedo    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 6:39:43 AM
A primary difference between WWI and WWII was the aftermath. There was wholesale destruction in every affected region of the world in both wars. After WWI, the "losers" were punished. huge repayments demanded, little or no assistance given to rebuild their countries. The aftermath of WWII was different in that little if any repayment of "damages" was required of the instigators/losers. The allies assisted in rebuilding efforts. After WWII there was also a "re-education" of the people who eventually became leaders in the countries that lost. Democracy was taught and various political classes given to wean the future leaders of these nations away from facism, socialism, totalitarianism. For the most part that worked. I've have most likely oversimplified, but my point is valid. Rather than punish, we have to rebuild and re-educate. back to the actual thread of what is Victory: FH - I'm not sure we'll ever really KNOW victory. I mean, even if we wipe out every last stinking loser of al qa'ida, even if the imams who are spouting hate and murder shut up or start preaching peace and love... there will always be someone out there who is discontent with the status quo and because they hold a minority view, they will become disenfranchised and attempt to change the balance in their favor through terror. I think we need to fous the WoT. What if we declared "Victory" with the decline of terrorist attacks around the world, and also with the decline of WMD? I mean, if we can point to more countries turning their back (as libya has purportedly done), if after 3-5 years, each and evey State Department report on the year in terror shows a steady decline, then we have come as close to a definitive victory as we will be able to, IMHO. I believe that re-education is imperative. the wahabbists need to be relieved of their leadership/teaching roles and either shown another path or killed. (rather make martyrs of them than leave them as an excuse for more terror attacks to be released and eventually spread more hate.) Or, we can take my more drastic solution: Nuke saudi, iraq, iran, indonesia, oman, kuwait, yemen, and any other country that harbors, supports, or just plain ignores the murderous ramblings of the "teachers of hate and death". They say I'm getting to be grumpy in my old age... I say I'm getting practical. ;-) E.
 
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ilpars    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 7:23:06 AM
"The aftermath of WWII was different in that little if any repayment of "damages" was required of the instigators/losers. The allies assisted in rebuilding efforts. After WWII there was also a "re-education" of the people who eventually became leaders in the countries that lost. Democracy was taught and various political classes given to wean the future leaders of these nations away from facism, socialism, totalitarianism. For the most part that worked. I've have most likely oversimplified, but my point is valid. Rather than punish, we have to rebuild and re-educate." That is the exact point I wanted to make. That is why I think US is following the right strategy in Iraq for victory. If US succeed, this will not only put Iraq out of threat list, it will also set an example to others. Arab culture is in an evoluation right now. In the last century consiousness of nation was unknown in Arab world. They did not fight for their independence, it is given to them. They learned the nationalism from Nazi Germany organisations who tried to open a new front to GB by an Aran uprising. The plan partially succeeded. Iraq at the time a vassal state of GB; revolted but suprassed very quickly. After WW2, they found a common enemy in Israel to unite them. To have a common enemy is an essential point for to gain national consiousness. Unification of Germany will be much later if invasion of Napoleon did not unite entire German countries against him. But Arabs have lost all of their wars. So they could not develop a national pride. Then they have learned from Soviets how to conduct an insurgency war. Now in insurgency war they are trying to gain a national pride. That is I think why Egypt do not need a war anymore. They think they have won 1973 war; so they developed a seperate Egypt national pride, which seperates them from other Arab nations. Right now their states are instable. Even most of their monarchies could not last long and most of them simply ruled by dictators who can be thrown any moment with a new military coup. And in addition to all of these the competion between US and Soviets at ME heavily militarised their society. If you can look at the big picture, Arab countries are evolving very fast. They have passed the evolution in a century which Europe and Turkey passed in several centuries. Democracy and secularism is the next step in their evolution. And evolution is an inevitable force. IMO, that will be the moment of victory and after that finally we will all have peace. (I hope)
 
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American Kafir    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 12:04:24 PM
>>I have a question for everyone here. What is Victory? I mean, in the sense of the "war on terror". How will we know when we have won? Can we win? What metrics do we use?<< If the words "America is angry" doesn't cause the terrorists to wet their pants, we've not won yet. This war should press on, with full fury, until terrorism is eradicated. If we have knowledge that a single terrorist is hiding in a certain nation, that nation should be given 30 minutes to turn over that terrorist before all of its cities are nuked, one for the terrorist, the rest because it's a clear message.
 
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Vulture    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 12:27:00 PM
Victory is when terrorists think of somewhere else besides the US and it citizens to attack. And allies could join up and set the same standards that would protect their people. Leaving terrorist supporting countries completely isolated in all aspects.
 
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ilpars    RE:What is Victory - AK   5/5/2004 12:27:23 PM
So you are saying that for example if a terrorist is hiding at USA, USA government should give himself 30 minutes to find him. If unsuccessful, nuke all of his cities. Did I get it right? I am asking this question to really understand what you are talking about.
 
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Achernar    RE:American Kafir   5/5/2004 12:31:58 PM
“This war should press on, with full fury, until terrorism is eradicated. If we have knowledge that a single terrorist is hiding in a certain nation, that nation should be given 30 minutes to turn over that terrorist before all of its cities are nuked, one for the terrorist, the rest because it's a clear message.” What a fanatic ideology!
 
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SGTObvious    The necessity of AK; for Ilpars and Achernar   5/5/2004 12:46:06 PM
It is absolutely vital that we have people like AK on our side, although it is not obvious why this is so. I shall explain. Achernar is right, AK is an extremist. By his very existence, he reminds the world that: 1) The American leadership is NOT extremist. By contrast, the Jehadi leadership is. 2) There are real American extremists, and there are options available to us far more extreme than the ones we take now. The Options exist, we CHOOSE not to take them. By contrast, the Jehadis are using the MOST extreme options they have available. 3) If the course of history ever pushes the US mainstream leadership over to the thinking of the extremists, it would be very, very, very bad to be on the anti-American side. The leaders of "sit on the fence" nations like Saudi Arabia and Syria had better understand what Kaddafi understands: If Al Queda ever gets its wish and an American city is nuked, it may become very unpleasant to be an Arab, even a moderate one. AK and his fellow extremists serve to remind people that the world is seeing a VERY RESTRAINED, VERY CAUTIOUS superpower at work.
 
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SGTObvious    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 12:47:35 PM
Victory is when the word "Shaheed", among Arabs, carries the same feelings that "Stormtrooper" does among Germans today.
 
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ilpars    RE:What is Victory   5/5/2004 1:02:31 PM
What is "Shaheed"? It could be "Sehit" in Turkish which means "Martyr" in English.
 
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