I can see where your skeptisim comes from, and rightfully so might I add. There are muslims who are far more turned off about this than you. First of all, I'm not talking about taking out all the bad from Islam and implementing the good, I am talking about implementing ALL of Islam, which is ALL good. The bad that you see isn't even Islam, and by the bad I mean almost everything about Alsaud, Osama, Saddam, Arafat, Iran, Jordan, etc. What I am saying is that Islam isn't like what these people are showing the world, it isn't like what the Ottomans showed the world in the last few hundred years, it is like what the Prophet showed the Romans and Persians during his time. Islam is supposed to produce great men and women, intelligent men and women, strong men and women, and brave men and women. Islam once create a city with over 100,000 scholars, that city was bagdad, now look at that place. Bagdad was the first city where people in large numbers were able to walk the streets at night, because it was the first city with lights. Islam produced a city that had the first sewer system, at a time where the people in europe used to throw their dirty water out their windows. Now it's the other way around, and that is becasue most muslims forgot Islam, and others changed Islam. It is very easy for me to come here and say all this, but very hard to do. I'm just trying to explain it realistically, there are so many forces stoping those who want to bring Islam back to it's glory (not Osama) from doing so, and those forces aren't even from the west, in fact, they are within the muslims. Those forces aren't armies, or governments, those forces are the muslims themselves. Muslims in the mid-east are so full of nationalism and hate to other muslims, so full of love to this life and all it's material prizes, the money, the cars, they would hate to give up SOME of those things. The "real" Islam is only going to come through a revolution, a real change within the muslim people. It doesn't have to be all muslims, just a large enough number, and it is hard to do, but must be done. Realistically speaking, this will probably take a few generations at the least, such a drastic change doesn't just happen in one day, or a few years, it takes time. Who knows, we might not see the real Islam in our lifetime, our children might not see it either, but that is no reason to be turned away from it, because if we don't start changing today, what makes us sure our children will start tommorow? One more point and I am done, What you said demonstrated something you probably weren't consience of, people like to see things done, but they don't like to do it. If muslims saw Islam in the way it should be, you wouldn't have anyone following the likes of Osama, in fact, they would dispise him; and if you ask them, I am sure almost all would agree. But if you ask them what are they doing to bring Islam back, they shy away and scratch their heads, and maybe even point some fingers at someone. Actions speak louder than words, that is true, but only words can transfer ideas and educate the people, and seeing that people don't like talk so much, that makes the job even harder. As you can see, it is a hard thing to restore Islam the way it should be, some may even say it is impossible, but Islamically, it is a sin on each and every muslim to live without having a real muslim leader leading the society (aka, an amir), so it is my duty and the duty of every muslim to bring Islam back to the level it used to be in, and whether it is easy or hard changes nothing. I don't accept from to agree, but if you think I am speaking the truth, don't turn away from it, it is your responsibility to take the truth where you see it.

As someone who tries to find the good in all serious attempts to find "THE TRUTH", I find it interesting that Osama, like many terrorists, can only tell us what he wants to destroy. There seems to be no plan for the aftermath of his destruction. Kind of like Tim Mcveigh. These sorts have lots of grievances with the evils of the system, but no plan to try to improve it, outside of killing innocents. Be you Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, or a follower of the Great Pumpkin, if you are looking for the truth, you cannot embrace Osama's or Tim's solution. For all they offer is death. Now, Osama has brought to light the nasty little business of how little the 'person on the street in the Middle East' can relate to his/her government. Look at any Middle Eastern so-called Islamic state. All are run by thugs and despots who stifle their people, but at the same time subtly support the Islamists who are not quite violent enough to be Osamas. Look at the education in Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Do you see math or science taught? Sorry, the emphasis is on Wahabism/Fundamentalism. These despots are creating the very environment which fosters the support of Osama. They encourage the fundamentalists to channel hatred toward the US and Israel in return for NOT looking at the regimes lack of opportunity for jobs, education and ability to compete in the world economy. 50 years ago, S. Korea had the same size economy as Saudi Arabia. Now, because the Koreans put their energies into their economy and educating their citizens, S. Korea's economy dwarfs that of Saudi Arabia. In short, Islam has been hijacked by religous fundamentalists who care not a whit for their countries or their peoples. They mask their shortsightedness with fundemental fervor. Got to quit now. My arthritis is killing me.

:As someone who tries to find the good in all serious attempts to find "THE TRUTH", I find it interesting that Osama, like many terrorists, can only tell us what he wants to destroy. There seems to be no plan for the aftermath of his destruction. Kind of like Tim Mcveigh. These sorts have lots of grievances with the evils of the system, but no plan to try to improve it, outside of killing innocents. Be you Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, or a follower of the Great Pumpkin, if you are looking for the truth, you cannot embrace Osama's or Tim's solution. For all they offer is death. Now, Osama has brought to light the nasty little business of how little the 'person on the street in the Middle East' can relate to his/her government. Look at any Middle Eastern so-called Islamic state. All are run by thugs and despots who stifle their people, but at the same time subtly support the Islamists who are not quite violent enough to be Osamas. Look at the education in Egypt or Saudi Arabia. Do you see math or science taught? Sorry, the emphasis is on Wahabism/Fundamentalism. These despots are creating the very environment which fosters the support of Osama. They encourage the fundamentalists to channel hatred toward the US and Israel in return for NOT looking at the regimes lack of opportunity for jobs, education and ability to compete in the world economy. 50 years ago, S. Korea had the same size economy as Saudi Arabia. Now, because the Koreans put their energies into their economy and educating their citizens, S. Korea's economy dwarfs that of Saudi Arabia. In short, Islam has been hijacked by religous fundamentalists who care not a whit for their countries or their peoples. They mask their shortsightedness with fundemental fervor." Couldn't have said it better myself, except for the math and science... at least this is the case in Jordan, when I first came here, the math they taught me in the U.S. in the ninth grade I already learned in Jordan during the seventh grade, same goes for science. But you are correct, the regimes there do try to change the focus from themselves to America, and therefore keeping the people from wanted to change their own governments. I don't think you read any of my previous posts, otherwise you would've seen that I am not at all a fan of ANY of the so-called muslim leaders. The only difference between me and you is that I don't only state the problem, I state the solution. Instead of just saying that the muslim leaders are corrupt and give a worse image of Islam than some westerners do, I always try to offer a solution afterwards, otherwise there would be no point in recognizing the problem. My only reason for being on this board is to clear the misconceptions (almost everything said about Islam here) I don't expect you or anyone to agree, but, again, if you think I speak the truth, don't run away from it, if you think I am wrong, then no one is forcing to accept what I say. Thank you for recognizing the reality of the muslim leaders.

it is a rare occasion that you say something worth responding to, and this is one of them. I don't know why I am saying this to you, you probably won't listen, but, you never know, you might actually think about what I am saying this time. America and its system is for you, I am in no position to critisize it because Islam is where my attention needs to be. I think the same applies to you. It is one of the themes of today's world that you don't judge others, and it is a good theme because we all have something within us that needs to be fixed first. You can think as much as you want that this society is a utopia, but the truth of the matter is that it is not, and I don't want to go into any details, it is self-explanitory. I never claimed applying Islam will take the world into a utopia, and I will never make such a claim, because the only utopia exists in heaven, and no man can implement it, but I will say Islam is the best system for mankind, because unlike communism, it doesn't only focus on the entire society and it's well being, Islam gives each individual freedoms which include the right to own, life, etc. And unlike the American system, it doesn't focus on individual freedoms and the hands off economy, it also creats guidelines that organize the society and keeps crimes to a minimum, something that no person can claim America has,in fact, communism did a better job at reducing crimes than America has done. So, you can put any labels on Islam that you wish, but the facts show otherwise. Islam is the best system that has ever come to mankind, and will ever come, under one condition, that it is done correctly. Islam is not a dream that can't be reached, it is a reality that ought to be implemented, it is the responsibility of every muslim to work for it.

No offense taken, Muslim. I'd not read your previous writings. I am not implying that all Muslims are fundementalists, nor that all support terrorism. Obviously, not. My point was merely that Osama and his kind (and I include loonies like McVeigh in this group) have no real solutions to problems in the world either. Merely they preach a nasty brand of fundementalism that would be bad medicine under the aegis of any religon. Be they extremeist Aryan/Christian, or hard-line Orthodox Jew, or hard-line Hindu nationalist; they preach hate under the pretense of following the "literal truth" of their religon. They are all scum. My solution/strategy is to: 1 forget Iraq, get the Palestinians and Israelis to the table. 2 increase money (and the pressure money brings) to get these countries to open up and democratize (even slowly is better than the status quo), increase education not just religous doctrination (a growing problem we have here in the US), train young folks to compete in the world economy, increase money spent on infrastructure to create jobs for these disaffected youth. I doubt Osama would have much of an audience if most young people in the Mid East had jobs with futures and regimes that listened to their problems and gave them a voice in the government. Unfortunately, most regimes in the area seem uninterested in addressing the roots of the problem. Which are: Poverty/Lack of education/Lack of opportunity for good jobs/Lack of opportunity to participate in government in a meaningful way. Sure, there are always some nuts who will follow a psycho. Look at Hitler and Stalin. Not all Germans loved Adolph, but too many did. I'd write more, but my arthritis is telling me no.

Here's is where most differences lie, not in identifying the problem, but in recognizing a solution. The solutions you proposed are perfect... to make the muslim world more like America, but not to bring muslims back to Islam (I agree, Osama is not at all an example of returning to Islam). What you and many westerners don't realize, or try to avoid, is that Muslims have a system, one that can work and compete in today's world, there is no need to "democratize" Muslims to keep them from supporting the likes of Osama, or to get them to improve or remove their current regime. There is a need to educate them, but not to make more money and have a stable future, but so that they can recognize the difference between a sincere, Muslim leader, ruling by Islam, for the muslims, and to work for bringing such a leader to power. Like I have said before, such a leader may not please the west, but will surely prevent the likes of Osama from attaining the widespread support he currently has, and will drasticly bring down (maybe not eliminate) the amount of civilian killings done by Muslims in the name of Islam and land. But such a leader also requires support from a good number, not the majority, but an influencial number of Muslims in the Muslim world; not impossible, but hard to do. EVERYONE agrees that one of the major problems within the Muslim world isn't Palestine, but the lack of a leader or scholars who can represent Muslims when they need to be represented. Today, we have thousands of scholars, and hundreds of rulers, yet, this last century has proven that it is not the number of the leaders and scholars that count, it is their quality, and one sincere leader is FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR FAR better than a million corupt ones. Just imagine if every state in the United States became it's own independent country, even though the citizens of those countries would still be Americans, their influence in the world would take an undeniable slump. It is the kind of untiy that Americans have that muslims lack. And it is this kind of unity that made the Muslim Nation a virtually impenetrable fortress until the first quarter of this last century. Even though I admire the fact that you, unlike many others, are looking for a solution, I must say that the problem of the Muslims needs a solution from Islam.

You said: "Muslin you had your shot! The modern Islamic state of Iran demonstrates unequivocally that it is even more corrupt then the communists! That the majority of the captive citizens of Iran yern for all things western, including Coca Cola and Democracy, speaks volumes! The solution is to embrace Democracy and make it work ! The longer you and your moon dreamers keep mumbling the rug-based incantations from a pedophile, the more likely you'll remain in thrall to 'Tyrant de jure' forms of governance! You need to get it trough your raggedy heads that the man on the white horse is NOT stopping at your station! So you need to pick the best available peacemakers for leaders and start living the life of peaceful folk! This means locking up the dirty ankled radicals you call scholars, and we call fundaMETAL defectives! Till then your gonna get your clocks cleaned! Simply because nobody can trust fanatic idiots! Worse, the cats outta the bag! Islam is known for what it is, whether Western leaders want to admit publically or not! Furthermore, if we don't win the struggle, you'll have to contend with the Chicoms and they'll have no qualms about turning your tent cities into glass parking lots! No wonder thae anarchists are afraid to demonstrate in Peking!" All I read was: "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Come back when you learn to write something worth thinking about.

I have to agree. But Muslim, I have a question for you. If I am correct, under the practice of dhimnitude, (sorry about the spelling) non-believers are not allowed to try and convert Muslims. Why is this the case? If Islam is the 'true' religion, and what God(Allah) intends man to become a part of, why would anyone want to leave it? So wouldn't banning non-muslims from converting muslims be unneccessary? But if they did leave, wouldn't this indicate that Islam not the "perfect religion" that it is held up to be? I await your reply.

"I have to agree. But Muslim, I have a question for you. If I am correct, under the practice of dhimnitude, (sorry about the spelling) non-believers are not allowed to try and convert Muslims. Why is this the case? If Islam is the 'true' religion, and what God(Allah) intends man to become a part of, why would anyone want to leave it? So wouldn't banning non-muslims from converting muslims be unneccessary? But if they did leave, wouldn't this indicate that Islam not the "perfect religion" that it is held up to be? I await your reply." To answer your question, first I have to clarify one point. Just because someone is a muslim, it doesn't mean he is a good muslim, or has a strong beliefe in Islam, so just becasue a muslim wants to leave Islam it doesn't mean Islam is weak, or that it is not correct, it just means that person either has a very weak understanding of Islam (very common these days), or he is just an arrogant person who wants an easier way of life. Now, as for others preaching their religion to Muslims, they are not allowed to, that is true. There really is nothing wrong with keeping other ideologies from being preached to Muslims, especially because what we already have is the truth. Also, there will be a huge resentment towards the christians (for example) who try to convert the Muslims, so preventing from doing so in the first place also acts as a protection for the preachers. I really don't see anything wrong, morally or Islamically, in banning others from preaching a contradictory idea to your people, would you want a drug dealer to try to sell drugs to your kids? If you did your job as a parent right, your kid shouldn't be tempted to accept the offer, but you still wouldn't want ANYONE to try to sell drugs to your kids. Allowing others to preach their religions to Muslims would be like allowing drug dealers to sell drugs to kids, or tobacco companies to advertise cigarrettes to kids, or communists to preach communism to Americans during the Cold War.

I have a big issue with what you just said. You compared preaching Christianity to trying to sell cigarettes and drugs to kids. First off, A religion is not a drug, like nicotine or any other street drug. I agree that kids can't be targeted, but there is a big difference between trying to get a kid to buy cigarettes and convincing an adult that the religion to which they belong is not the correct one after all. An adult is perfectly able to decide what religion they wish to belong to, and to prevent them from learing about others is a form of mental slavery. And Christians will be resented because they preach their religion? What does that say about Muslims? That they don't like the idea of other people leaving their religion, thus sending the message that maybe, just maybe theirs is the wrong one? Doesn't this give Christians justification in disliking Muslims who try and get Christians to follow Islam? That is a non-sensical argument. Also, to prevent someone from preaching their religion is a gross violation of their rights. The kind of free speech restrictions necessary to do so what violate their rights as human beings, and not something you can force on other people. And Communists are allowed to "preach" in America, even during the cold war. But it wasn't welcomed, because people recognized Communism was a pseudo-scientific form of society that rejected the Idea that there is One God. But America lets any religion preach, because, in the end, the TRUTH WILL WIN. If Islam is the truth, it has nothing to worry about. People who convert should convert back once they realize the error of their ways. To prevent them from knowing other religions is essentially forcing Islam upon them, they have no other options.