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Subject: Clear Miracle-ness here.
Ben    8/26/2002 10:52:11 AM
From humble beginnings, amidst feuding tribes, many of them illiterate pagans, a man mobilizes thousands around him in a matter of a few years. Within a lifetime he has vast hordes of followers stretching across a continent. To the muslims, I suppose, this is "proof" of their religion. I had no idea muslims considered Ghenghis Khan's life story to be a miracle from God. But now it all makes sense.
 
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Muslims to ben    RE:Clear Miracle-ness here.   8/28/2002 4:09:30 AM
"To the muslims, I suppose, this is "proof" of their religion" You supposed wrong, what you described isn't what muslims consider a miracle. The word for miracle in Arabic literaly means something that nobody can do, this not a discription of what the word means, this is what the arabic word for miracle means. The miracle of the Quran isn't that it united an illiterate society, the miracle of the Quran is that NOBODY can imitate it's style, heck, arabs couldn't even determine it's style. They just heard these incredibly eloquent, unique, one-of-a-kind, and miraculous verses coming out of the mouth of a man who couldn't even read or write. And still today, nobody has an reasonable alternate explanation for the source of this book other than it is from God, still today, nobody can write anything like it (the challenge is ten words). Nobody, not a single human being for the past 1400 years has been able to creat a piece of writing, just 10 words long, similar to the Quran, a book that came out of a man who couldn't even read nor write. If you really want to show muslims that Islam is false, this is the challenge that you need defeat, this the longest lasting challenge ever made (my opinion, I don't genuis world book of records has a category for this type of thing), you beat the challenge, 1.5 billion people will imediately be without a religion.
 
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Ben    Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   8/28/2002 8:32:54 AM
He was a merchant. Merchants could read and write. It was part of being a merchant, and according to Khadija (Am I spelling it right?) he was a pretty good merchant. Quid Ered Sum, he could read and write. Don't slander the guy. It really upsets Muslims when you slander Mohammed by saying he was illiterate. Furthermore, Islam does not rest on the supposed inability of the Q'uran to be duplicated. (Which it can, quite easily, mathematically). Note that your religion has 5 pillars- not one of them says "and you must believe no one else could write stuff like this". If a computer duplicated the style of the Q'uran tommorow, which it can quite easily, I assure you to things would happen: 1. People like you would deny it. 2. Muslims would go on being Muslims. Now, making something similar to the Tao Te Ching, THAT would be a miracle, don't you agree? As a matter of fact, I would claim to have taken and won your challenge, because the Tao Te Ching is cleary more miraculous than the Q'uran, if only becuase it's miraculous nature is so miraculous that even translated into English it remains miraculous. A book that when translated loses all sense of coherence is certainly not as miraculous as one which does not.
 
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Muslim to ben    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   8/28/2002 2:29:15 PM
man please, just because he was a merchant doesn't mean he could read or write. If he could read or write, we would've had a version of the quran written in his handwriting, and trust me, muslims would've kept it for as long as they possibly can. As for the miracle of the quran, you claim that a computer can imitate it's style. Go ahead, find one that can do so. I really don't care about the tao te ching, and I don't know anything about it. If you want to believe it has a miracle, go right ahead, I won't stop you.
 
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AK to Muslim    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/7/2002 12:08:11 PM
>>man please, just because he was a merchant doesn't mean he could read or write. If he could read or write, we would've had a version of the quran written in his handwriting, and trust me, muslims would've kept it for as long as they possibly can.<< Perhaps the miracle of Islam is that Muhammad was a successful merchant as an illiterate in a trade system dominated by the use of Greek, Hebrew or Roman letters as numbers (before Arabic numerals became the standard). There are several hadith about Muhammad *writing* though...
 
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Muslim to ak    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/8/2002 4:14:27 PM
"There are several hadith about Muhammad *writing* though..." Show them
 
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American Kafir to Muslim    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/9/2002 3:33:17 PM
"There are several hadith about Muhammad *writing* though..." >>Show them<< Here's a nice death threat letter Muhammad sent to the Omani to convince them of the "peace" of Islam, still on display at Sohar Fort in the Sultanate of Oman: "Peace be upon the one who follows the right path! I call you to Islam. Accept my call, and you shall be unharmed. I am God's Messenger to mankind, and the word shall be carried out upon the miscreants. If, therefore, you recognize Islam, I shall bestow power upon you. But if you refuse to accept Islam, your power shall vanish, my horses shall camp on the expanse of your territory and my prophecy shall prevail in your kingdom." [no way to tell if he actually wrote it, but, it is a record of what he said...] Then there's the hadiths of Muhammad writing or asking for *his* writing materials... "Narrated 'Ursa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death)." (Sahih Bukhari 7.88) "Narrated Anas bin Malik : Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet ..." (Sahih Bukhari 1.65) "Narrated Said bin Jubair: that he heard Ibn 'Abbas saying, "Thursday! And you know not what Thursday is? After that Ibn 'Abbas wept till the stones on the ground were soaked with his tears. On that I asked Ibn 'Abbas, "What is (about) Thursday?" He said, "When the condition (i.e. health) of Allah's Apostle deteriorated, he said, 'Bring me a bone of scapula, so that I may write something for you after which you will never go astray.'The people differed in their opinions although it was improper to differ in front of a prophet, They said, 'What is wrong with him? Do you think he is delirious? Ask him (to understand). The Prophet replied, 'Leave me as I am in a better state than what you are asking me to do.' Then the Prophet ordered them to do three things saying, 'Turn out all the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, show respect to all foreign delegates by giving them gifts as I used to do.' " The sub-narrator added, "The third order was something beneficial which either Ibn 'Abbas did not mention or he mentioned but I forgot.' (Sahih Bukhari 4.393) There are others....
 
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FunnyMan    Arabic Numerals RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/11/2002 12:22:51 PM
Sorry to sidestep this wonderful topic, but the numeric system known to Westerners as "Arabic Numerals" actually originated in India. From there is travelled to Arabian lands, and first encountered by Westerners, who branded it the Arabic numerals. Go to history books, and you will find this well documented.
 
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American Kafir to FunnyMan    RE:Arabic Numerals Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/11/2002 3:16:43 PM
You are absolutely correct.
 
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Muslim to Ak    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/13/2002 3:26:56 AM
Disregarding the content of those hadiths (it will be too long of a discussion), none of those verse show that the prophet himself wrote any of those. Again, if the prophet could read and write, why did he assign writers to write the Quran on his behalf? He read the Quran to those writers and they wrote it down word for word, letter for letter. He could've just written the Quran in his own handwriting, and trust me on this one, it would still exist today.
 
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AK to Muslim    RE:Muslim, Mohammed could read and write.   9/15/2002 6:50:25 AM
>>Disregarding the content of those hadiths (it will be too long of a discussion), none of those verse show that the prophet himself wrote any of those.<< No, they claim that Muhammad wrote or asked for writing materials for the purpose of writing. You can't pretend these hadiths don't exist. >>Again, if the prophet could read and write, why did he assign writers to write the Quran on his behalf? He read the Quran to those writers and they wrote it down word for word, letter for letter.<< *IF* Muhammad couldn't read or write, how would he know what was written was what he actually said? Particularly since the Quran remained uncompiled for 18 years after he was dead? >>He could've just written the Quran in his own handwriting, and trust me on this one, it would still exist today.<< Or he followers could be precise and meticulous about recording every detail about Muhammad from who he personally killed to which hand he used to wipe his semen on the wall with after coitus interruptus so Muslims today could declare Muhammad the example all should follow except when it looks "bad" to civilized people.
 
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