..I'd also be very glad to ask u if u did know that Israel gased palestinians a number of times but in limited amounts so that it doesn't get much media attention.... PROOF? You have proof of this assertion, other than what is printed in the normally reliable Arab press? This is about as credible as Saudi, Syrian and Egptian claims that Jews and Israelis use the blood of children to bake the Passover matzoh, On THESE boards, you make a claim like that- you better be prepared to back it up with evidence. Otherwise, you are just another blathering posturing Islamic-Nazi, that makes up ridiculous charges with nothing but foul air to back them up. So lets see your evidence. ..As to the UN I wouldn't want to stress much upon i'ts role as i'ts wholy controlled by the USA due to it's veto power.and i'd like to tell u that there was a resolution that obliges isreal imediate retreat from palestinian land... And WHAT UN resolution would that be? Would it be an Article 6 or Article 7 resolution? Or one from the General Assembly? Please cite which one. ..If u read a little bit of history u'll find that all existing arab nations formerly were one state that the british and french separated... Yep, those Arabs weer one big happy family, werent they? Except that they were under the umbrella of the Ottoman - that is - TURKISH - empire. The wonderfully happy and united Arabs hadnt been united as ONE nation, under ALLAH, since before the arrival of the Seljuk Turks, in the 1000s. Maybe YOU should be reading more than a little bit of history. ..there was no jordanian or egyptian occupation of palestine.. No, they were just happily camped out from 1948-1967, roasting Jews in cross border incursions. Egypt was NEVER an Arab land until conquered from the Byzantine EMpire by alBadr in the 600s. Prior to that, it had its own ethnic and cultural identity. Most Eqyptians , despite speaking Arabic, are NOT ethically Arab. Their history as a country - distinct from Arab - goes back thousands of years. Read up on your history - again. ..As to the palestinian support of saddam well i'll be happy to inform u that saddam was supported by the USA and Europe during the gasing of the Kurds at 1981, infact the americans gave saddam technology for producing these chemicals that they are looking for today... Nice try at changing the subject, rather than addressing what I answered your charges with. Nice try, but it is irrelevant. Seems to be a typical way of arguing when you can't respond on the merits- just try to wiggle your way out and maybe no one will notice. Oh well, at least we now have your measure. ..And what about the attrocities that sharon did at the lebanese town of halabsha in which he was found guilty of in his own country but didn't get any punishment of any kind... I have found NO reference to Halabsha, Lebanon, nor could find it on my very detailed 1:50,000 map. Perhaps you meant the Kurdish village of Halabsha in Iraq, where Saddam Hussein massacred at least 7000 Kurds? The trial in Israel against Sharon was concerning his indirect involvement in the Christain Phalange REVENGE attacks against the "innocent" Palestinians in the Sabra-Shatila refugee camps, camps which were used by the PLO as bases to raid and massacre Lebanese Christians. If you can cite a reference to a Lebanese Halabsha that I ca look at, please feel free to do so. And Sharon was dismissed from his post as Minister of Defense for his indirect actions. ..As to the palestinian support of saddam well i'll be happy to inform u that saddam was supported by the USA and Europe during the gasing of the Kurds at 1981, infact the americans gave saddam technology for producing these chemicals that they are looking for today... YAWN - OLD And previously discussed accusations, and again, IRRELEVANT to the post. swhitebull - I would strogly suggest that you come to these boards with actual proof and evidence, rather than groundless accusations and charges. If you want to establish credibility here, try to at least seem credible, rather than your typical ghul does here with unsubstantiated, if not outright fabricated, accusaitions.

"there was no jordanian or egyptian occupation of palestine" Yes. There was. To help you with the concept, I'll even tell you when it happened; between 1948 and 1967. "u'll find that all existing arab nations formerly were one state that the british and french separated" Yes. And that state was called "The Ottoman *Turkish* Empire". But, if that's what y'all really want, go for it. "because of the western supported dictatorships that isn't possible" This is really amusing. Leaving aside the fact that you're complaining about a lack of respect which Arab culture has never seemed willing to grant to any others, the fact is that I've been around long enough to see more than one cycle of this nonsense. The dictators you complain that America treated as legitimate Arab leaders, of course, are PRECISELY the people the Arabs of twenty years ago demanded, with equal fervor, that the West treat as legitimate leaders. In fact, there is more than half a century of this nonsense, where America has accepted whatever decisions various Arabs make about their internal rule, only to see the same Arabs whining, some years later, when they see the mess their last bunch of national saviors have made about how they never supported those people and why did not America help them against those vile men? But, this is part and parcel of the wider fantasy world so many Arabs seem to inhabit. For instance, America, in the real world, never supplied Saddam with poison gas nor supported it's use. Neither did Israel ever use poison gas, anywhere, anytime, still less against any Kurds. Poison gas is one of those habits the Arabs adopted with such relish, although they had to steal the idea from others. It was Nasser who gassed the Yemenis he was fighting, during the Yemeni Civil War, just as it was Great Saddam who gassed the Iranians and Kurds, of his own planning and devices. But, you have even your fantasies mixed. Halbja was the Kurdish town Saddam gassed. Your slander is looking for Sabra and Chatilla, in Lebanon. Of course, Ariel Sharon never killed anyone there, nor ordered anyone killed. That was the Christian Phalangists who massacered Palestinians in retaliation for earlier massacres of their people. No one ever killed "every human being" in ANY city in the Middle East in the modern era. The man who came closest, however, is an Arab, not a Jew. Hafiz al-Assad made a fair try at this when he ordered the destruction of Hama, that noted center of the international Zionist Conspiracy. How badly confused must you be to require someone else to correct the mistakes of your mistakes.

These are my initial questions. I will follow up with more according to your answers. 1.) What does the word Palestine mean in Arabic? 2.) Why was the PLO formed before Israel took the West Bank and Gaza Strip in 1967? 3.) When was Palestine founded? What was the form of government, capital city, national anthem, per capita GNP and leading exports of Palestine and the Palestinian people when Israel "took their land" from them? 4.) Where is Jerusalem mentioned in the Quran?

"People keep on abusing Islam until they read about it and now all their aspects and specifications." It is a bad habit to get into to assume that the only reason people disagree with you is because they are ignorant. People that assume that display thier own ignorance, because it proves that they have never heard nor considered the arguements of thier opponents. I find that it is possible for reasonable people to disagree. People who think that no reasonable person would disagree with them are usually shown to lack knowledge. You have said, "One who is a muslim knows that sharia is the law that has to be applied to him as that is what's said in the muslims' holy book the Quran." Now, gird your loins like man and make answer to me. I'd prefer to make this discussion in English, but if you must make a statement in Arabic then I'll fetch my Egyptian friend and do as best as I can. 1) If the Sharia is part of the Koran, surely you can tell me where in the Koran it can be found? Please show me enough pasages to convince me that in fact the whole of the Sharia is contained within the Koran. 2) When was Sharia law first practiced? Has the Sharia been practiced in more than one form? 3) Did Mohammad practice the whole of Sharia law? For example, did Mohammad require his first wife to cover her face with a veil? 4) My understanding is that Islam believes in the doctrine of 'closed revelation'. That is, Islam believes that Mohammad was the last of God's prophets, and believes that his death sealed the teachings of God as final and complete. If the Sharia is the revealed law of God as taught by The Prophet, why was it not included in the Koran along with the rest of Mohammed's words? Or, if the Koran contains all of Mohammed's teachings, why was the Sharia not contained within it? 5) My understanding is that Islam believes that the Koran is the necessary and complete guide to how to live, and that any attempt to add additional laws and teachings to it is wrong. But if parts of the Sharia cannot be found within the Koran, is not the Sharia itself an attempt to add to the Prophet's words? 6) My understanding is that Islam believes in a doctrine of 'superceding revelation'. That is, Moslem's teachers and learned men when examining the Koran, believe that Mohammed's understand was made more complete as God made additional revalations to him - finally becoming fully complete before Mohammed died. Therefore these same teachers and learned men teach that when two pronouncements in the Koran appear to contridict each other that the latter pronouncement supercedes the former since it was made when the truth was more fully revealed to the Prophet. 7) How many versions of the Koran have existed? 8) What language did the Prophet Mohammed speak? What langauge did the Prophet Mohammed write in? You say, "A person cant call himself a muslim if he doesn't act upon It's teachings." I ask therefore: 10) Did the Caliphs of Islam always practice the Sharia? But are not the Caliphs the hiers of the Prophet and have the fullest authority over what constitutes the Prophet's teachings? 11) Is the Sharia practiced throughout all of the Islamic world? Has the Sharia been practiced throughout the Islamic world through all of its History? Are you suggesting that all those that have not practiced the whole of the Sharia are not moslems? 12) If you convert to Islam and submit yourself to God, praying all the requied times a day piously and humbly, engaging in pilgrimage, abstaining from unclean things, and in all other ways showing submission to God, but dwell in a land which does not practice the Sharia it is possible that you do not even know of the Sharia or do not believe that practicing the Sharia is a requirement of Islam. Indeed this is likely, for there more places which practice Islam but not the Sharia than their are places which practice the Sharia, both now and in the past. Now, suppose someone tells you of the Sharia and dispite your piety you are horrified of it because the burden it represents is greater than what you are willing to bear. What would you tell the person? If the person, who having accepted Islam but not the Sharia, refuses to accept the Sharia what is the penalty that should be applied to him? Now is there any wonder that you marvel when people reject your teachings? After all, not even all who have read the Koran believe as you do even if they consider themselves Moslem. You also say, "If u read a little bit of history u'll find that all existing arab nations formerly were one state that the british and french separated" Now I have read more than a little bit of history, and I don't recall this nation you mention. Answer these questions: 1) What was the name of this single nation which the English and French divided? 2) Who ruled this nation? Could you perhaps list a portion of the lineage of these rulers? 3) Where was its ca

Regarding the Sharia, I leave the Moslems on this board with this to chew on: "And when it is said to them: 'Follow what God has sent down', they say, 'No, but we will follow such things as we found our fathers doing.' What? Even if their fathers had no understanding of anything, and if they were not guided?" (2:170) I hope the translation is adequate to get the sense of the original passage, if not the exact meaning.

bsl, I was going to go down that post of his point-by-point as well, but you beat me to it. :-) Well done and well said. --Phoenix Rising

It has had exactly that effect in Londonistan, UK. Specifically it also brought down the two towers.

"...if a person steals... he hand should be cut off,but once one of the Khalifas altered that rule to just being jailed... that shows u the wisdom of the sharia " No, Arabian, that shows the Wisdom of a HUMAN Khalifa realizing that the Evil, Unwise Sharia had to change to apply to his time and circumstances. But, on its own, the Sharia does Not Say: If you need to change it in the future because of advancements in philosphy, here is how you do it" (Like the US Constitution does) What the Arabs achieved in the realm of philosophy was in spite of Islam and not because of it.

Well Arabian Analyst, I see we can agree on at least one thing - we both hate Wahhabists. Nay, we can agree on a second thing - we both hate racism in all of its forms. If you are willing to believe that the Sharia is something which should change to adjust to circumstances, then I have little problem with your doctrine. But the overwhelming number of people who wish to see Sharia law installed in a country believe in a law of stonings, amputations, and cruelty in which women are abused according to tribal customs and men are made to dress according to old tribal custums and indeed all is made illegal if it is not part of the old Bedowin tradition. They do not believe that the Sharia should change, but instead treat the Sharia as if it were the Koran. You may speak of a changed and uncorrupted Sharia which no longer practices these barbarisms which were practiced by the Idol worshipers before the prophet spoke to them, but in fact I see no sign that such a Sharia exists. Instead, the only Sharia I see is the one in which godless people, filled with devils, use the excuse of the Sharia to practice whatever cruelty that their own shame (the devil that drives them) demands of them. These people do not act according to the will of God, for God cares not at all for what they think of as 'thier honor' - for what indeed is the honor of men to God?

This is what is going on in France, though I hope it is not as widespread as this author suggests. My gut says that it is widespread, unfortunately. http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=11445 France's Wake-Up Call By Olivier Guitta FrontPageMagazine.com | December 23, 2003 Last week, French President Jacques Chirac declared that "(French) schools will remain secular." Thus, the hijab, the yarmulke and "large crosses" are going to be banned in France’s schools. But the real underlying issue, one not addressed by Chirac, concerns the extremist version of Islam currently threatening the French Republic, host to the largest Muslim population in Europe. The French Muslim community’ estimated at anywhere between five and eight million people ‘ is totally indoctrinated and controlled by extremist organizations such as UOIF (Union des Organizations Islamiques de France), which is affiliated to the Muslim Brotherhood, a notorious Islamist terrorist group founded in Egypt in 1927. These fanatics control most French mosques and get financial support from Saudi Arabia. In fact, the Arab Kingdom is behind almost every mosque and Islamic center in France. For example, last week, it was revealed in the French newspaper Le Monde that Saudi Arabia is going to finance the restoration of the Paris Mosque, thus exporting discreetly its extremist version of Islam, Wahhabism. The most vocal advocate of Wahhabism in France is Tariq Ramadan, a Swiss philosophy teacher who happens to be the grandson of Hassan Al Banna, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood. Ramadan has been very active in France during the past ten years, spreading his extremist views and becoming the unofficial voice of French Islam. He has now become a "star," appearing constantly on French prime-time television. Ramadan symbolizes the view, as Jacques Jormier, a leading French expert on Islam, puts it, "that does not modernize Islam but Islamizes modernity." The extent to which Ramadan’s brand of totalitarian Islam has gained a strong foothold in France can be seen in the plight of French Muslim women. In certain cases, French Muslim families are paid 500 Euros (around 600 USD) per trimester by Muslim organizations just to have their daughters wear the hijab. In fact, a survey done last May found that 77% of girls wearing the hijab do so because of the physical threats received from Islamist groups. Liberation, a major French newspaper, recently showed how Muslim women and girls in France who refuse to wear the hijab are insulted, rejected and often times physically threatened by Muslim males. One of the teenage girls interviewed said, "Every day, bearded men come to me and advise me strongly on wearing the veil. It is a war. For now, there are no dead but there are looks and words that do kill." Muslim women who try to rebel are considered outcasts and "whores." Some of them want to move to areas "with no Muslims" to escape. However, that might not be a solution, as Islamists are at work everywhere in France. For example, L’Humanite, the Communist French newspaper usually very much in sync with France’s Arab population, recently interviewed two Catholic-born French women who said that they converted to Islam after a methodical indoctrination by the Muslim Brotherhood. This extremist indoctrination also extends to French schools, where non-Muslim teachers are subject to daily insults and racist remarks. For instance, the principal of the Trappes’ primary school described how, "An 11-year-old kid insulted his female teacher because she was not wearing the hijab. Intolerant behaviors especially against teachers and other religions have skyrocketed in the past three years." These young children are taught from the time they can walk that Islam is the answer to everything the Ultimate Truth and that is why even six-year-olds are now fasting during Ramadan. Therefore, is not surprising that ten-year olds call for the institution of Shariah, or Koranic law, during class. Or that during a high school History lesson regarding the Crusades, a Muslim student yelled: "Anyway, the Arabs are going to kill the Christians and the Jews." The teacher then asked him, "When?" and the child replied, "I do not know. It was not mentioned on the imam’s tape." Or that on a course on the Holocaust, Muslim children demanded to be let go to ask their imams if what they were being taught was true. But school is not the only place in France where militant Islam is omnipresent. For example, in Avignon, Muslim extremists distribute loads of Koranic tapes in French and drive around town with their windows open and propaganda blasting through the speakers. In French hospitals, most Muslim women, sometimes under the family’s pressure, refuse to be examined by male doctors and many Muslim men by female doctors. Many Muslim defendants refuse to be tried by Jewish judges, and some municipal pools have different hours for women and men to accom