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Subject: A complex situation
Sherwood    1/15/2004 10:36:24 AM
Speaking as a quarter Jew, and as proud of this as I am of my Celtic and Anglo-Saxon heritages, I want to know which Israel do the pro-Israelis support? We outsiders often make the mistake of seeing Israel as a homogenous society. The people who live in Israel are as varied as any other country, and more so than most. There are European and North African Jews. Some of the latter hate the former as much as they hate Arabs, considering them to be interlopers and immigrants. Some of the former despise the later as savages and primitives. I used to work with a an ex IDF tanker many of whose relatives didn't speak to him or his parents, one European Jew and one North African Jew, due to his polluted mixed blood. There are Liberal, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox of many flavours. The first two are no different from Jews anywhere in the world. However, many of the latter wish an Old Testament society whose laws make Sharia seem liberal. There are tiny groups who endlessly campaign for a military ethnic cleansing of Greater Israel while prohibitting their own sons from risking their lives in the military, to avoid "contamination" by mainstream Israeli society. Due to the make up of Israeli democracy, such fanatics have a powerful voice. We do the same with the Arabs. Palestinians are not the only Arabs in the country, by the way are anti-Muslims aware that a significant number of Arabs are Christian. The Israeli army, itself, contains moslem Arabs, the Bedouin have many men loyally serving in the IDF. Think, who is closer to you a biblical modern day patriarch who wants to kill women for speaking to unrelated men or a Christian Arab journalist fighting against injustices (not necessarily in Israel). Its not as simple as we let ourselves believe. The situation is astonishingly complex and not amenable to the "stomping all the r*g-h*ds will bring peace" attitude prevalent nowadays. We have a greater confusion in the wider world. All the anti-Arab and anti-muslim rhetoric has so little to do with real people its hard to see how it the hate burgeoned. Mainstream Muslim cultures are little different from their western conservative counterparts. I've spent two decades of my working life surrounded by colleagues from both groups, once they started to trust each other they found more in common than either have with liberal Europeans. How quickly we westerners came to become kneejerk haters of Islam is worrying, who will we hate next? Maybe, now we're allowed to be racists again, we will go back to being anti-negro. Or, irony of ironies, return to last centuries antisemitism. An even greater worry. We created the organisations of muslim fanatics for our own purposes in the 1980's and by some astonishing blunders we turned them against us. Its too late to correct this now, we are at war with implacable foes and we must hunt them down root and branch. But let's stop confusing Islam and terrorism before we give Bin Laden his real victory. If, as many textbooks state, the goal of terrorism is to provoke your opponent into over reaction, our confusion of Islam and Terrorism is giving our enemy an easy victory. Remember neither Bin Laden nor Al Quaeda need to survive the war. If he has set Christianity and Islam at each others throats he has triumphed.
 
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Ex98C    RE:Replies   1/17/2004 1:14:19 PM
I apologize if it seemed that I was accusing you of something Shrwood. That was not all the intent of my post. The intent of my second post was to explain my feelings about the war on terrorism and the effect it has on American views on muslims and vise versa. as I was punch drunk I dug a litle deep and my beliefs depressed me I truely hope the outcome will be as destructive as I believe. As to my opinion of you Sherwood? you seem to be thoughtful and reasoned in your posts; neither one extreme or the other and open to others beliefs and theories. If that analysis is insulting then I apologize :wink:
 
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Final Historian    Islam versus everyone else   1/17/2004 1:25:11 PM
I really hope that we can avoid a situation where it becomes Islam versus the West. Because, then, as you pointed out Sherwood, Bin Laden "wins". Temporarily, at least. The eventual outcome of that scenario doesn't have Islam winning, if it even survives. As for avoiding that outcome, that is much more difficult. I agree about the hating part. We musn't come to hate them like they hate us, that will ensure the conflict becomes a Total War scenario. What I am not sure about is how to stop that from happening. The Wahhabis are continuing to spread their message, and some point in the future will eventually dominate Sunni Islam. I need to put some thought into this.
 
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Sherwood    Replies 2   1/17/2004 1:50:14 PM
Sorry that I got the hump with you all. I intellectualise stuff and often forget that I'm not the only person to react first and read carefully later. Regards
 
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celebrim    An excellent post.   1/18/2004 12:57:38 PM
Sherwood: I haven't read everyone elses responces to this because I don't want to bias myself before responding. I'll read the rest of the thread after composing my responce. First, let me say that you raise legitimate issues and concerns. However, for all your skepticism and all your understanding, I think you've missed your own point completely. In other words, I think you do understand, but you aren't fully cognizant of your own understanding. Instead, you feel like the situation is so complex that you can't really cut to the heart of the matter, and you are I think in this post trying to impress on the board how truly complex the situation is. To a certain extent, I fully agree with that, because too many people here are quick to assert the simple truth and even when they are right, it often seems from thier arguement that their opinion is informed by ignorance and not understanding. As such, some of them are sometimes asserting the truth for the wrong reasons, which exposes the truth to riducule and denial at the least, and runs the risk of planning the wrong course of action at the worst. These are I think your fears, as best as I can understand them. If they aren't, then by all means keep talking and I'll do my best to understand. I beg you though to reread what you have just asserted and ask yourself if it really is as complex as all that. You have just asserted, quite correctly, that Israel is a pluristic society composed of many different people with differing beliefs. You have asserted, quite correctly, that in Israel you can find 'bad guys', criminals, religious fanatics, racists, and that some of these groups have undo influence of the the government of the nation. This is all quite correct and true. But you state such a thing as if it were an accusation, and its not. It's a democracy, as you yourself state. It is, by the very nature of being pluristic, a liberal society. In America, it is quite correct to say that we tolerate (but at least now do not _accept_) racists in our midst. But this does not make America a 'racist country'. In America, it is quite correct to say that we are a 'Christian country'. But, it is also equally correct to assert we are a 'secular nation'. This is because we are a pluristic society with diverse backgrounds. In America, there are tiny groups that advocate racial cleansing, but they are as you suggest of those in Israel, tiny groups. Occasionally undoly powerful groups, but not mainsteam and not openly accepted groups. Tolerence.org can run commercials on major networks, but none of the major networks would accept commercial advertising from the KKK. Both opinions are tolerated, but only one is accepted. So no, I agree with you that Israel doesn't have perfectly clean hands. I agree with you that Israel hasn't acted with perfect wisdom or integrity in times past and present. But that isn't really the point. The people of Israel are human, and we should be surprised indeed to find that they'd never made mistakes collectively or individually. You assert, quite correctly, that many Palestinians are Christians. That is true. The community has been living thier continiously for nearly 2000 years. It is the oldest Christian community in the world, and predates the Islamic community by several centuries. But I ask you, on which side of 'the fence' is it easier and safer to practice Christianity? I am a Christian myself. I know which land it is easier to practice Christianity openly in. Investigate this truth for yourself. The Christian community in Palistine is in danger of extinction. Every year the community becomes smaller. Every year, more and more try to escape. And this is the important part, it is not Israel that they are being persecuted by. It is not the fact that they are Palestinians for which they suffer, but the fact that they are Christians. The PLO has asserted that any state they create will be wholly Islamic, the curricula taught in thier schools will be and is thoruoghly religious in nature, and indeed _it will be illegal to practice Chistianity in a future Palestinian state_. The Christians want to retain or regain thier land, but it is becoming increasingly clear that they can neither regain it from the Israeli's nor retain it from the Islamics. You assert, quite correctly, that not all the the Arabs living in Palestine are Palestinians. But how did that come to pass? The truth is that in 1912 there were about 500,000 Moslem Arabs in Palestine. In 1948 there were 1,200,000 Moslem Arabs living in all of Palestine, several 100,00 of which had 'illegally' immigrated from other parts of the Arab world. Today there are some 3,300,000 Moslem Arabs in Palestine, only half of which are actually Palestinian by ancestory. Is this evidence of a great persecution? Why did all of these non-Palestinian Arabs arrive, and how is it that they came to be considered refugees from a land in which they
 
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American Kafir    RE:Seperation of issues   1/19/2004 12:36:47 AM
>>1. The nature of Israel.<< Israel, as a democratic state, is one of only 120 or so nations on our planet that actually have the right to exist. >>2. Giving Bin Laden his victory on a plate.<< What is his victory? The Muslims of the world united in war with the West? Well hell, why didn't he say so? What are we waiting for?
 
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Sherwood    RE:A complex situation   1/22/2004 8:46:58 AM
Forgive me if i drop off this thread for a while, I mean no disrespect to the respondants rather the reverse. This issue is a crucial one to me and needs careful thought. Real life is intervening and I'm spending my next few weeks preparing my next years work and getting clients. See you on other less serious threads. Regards
 
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