Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Terrorism Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: A complex situation
Sherwood    1/15/2004 10:36:24 AM
Speaking as a quarter Jew, and as proud of this as I am of my Celtic and Anglo-Saxon heritages, I want to know which Israel do the pro-Israelis support? We outsiders often make the mistake of seeing Israel as a homogenous society. The people who live in Israel are as varied as any other country, and more so than most. There are European and North African Jews. Some of the latter hate the former as much as they hate Arabs, considering them to be interlopers and immigrants. Some of the former despise the later as savages and primitives. I used to work with a an ex IDF tanker many of whose relatives didn't speak to him or his parents, one European Jew and one North African Jew, due to his polluted mixed blood. There are Liberal, Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox of many flavours. The first two are no different from Jews anywhere in the world. However, many of the latter wish an Old Testament society whose laws make Sharia seem liberal. There are tiny groups who endlessly campaign for a military ethnic cleansing of Greater Israel while prohibitting their own sons from risking their lives in the military, to avoid "contamination" by mainstream Israeli society. Due to the make up of Israeli democracy, such fanatics have a powerful voice. We do the same with the Arabs. Palestinians are not the only Arabs in the country, by the way are anti-Muslims aware that a significant number of Arabs are Christian. The Israeli army, itself, contains moslem Arabs, the Bedouin have many men loyally serving in the IDF. Think, who is closer to you a biblical modern day patriarch who wants to kill women for speaking to unrelated men or a Christian Arab journalist fighting against injustices (not necessarily in Israel). Its not as simple as we let ourselves believe. The situation is astonishingly complex and not amenable to the "stomping all the r*g-h*ds will bring peace" attitude prevalent nowadays. We have a greater confusion in the wider world. All the anti-Arab and anti-muslim rhetoric has so little to do with real people its hard to see how it the hate burgeoned. Mainstream Muslim cultures are little different from their western conservative counterparts. I've spent two decades of my working life surrounded by colleagues from both groups, once they started to trust each other they found more in common than either have with liberal Europeans. How quickly we westerners came to become kneejerk haters of Islam is worrying, who will we hate next? Maybe, now we're allowed to be racists again, we will go back to being anti-negro. Or, irony of ironies, return to last centuries antisemitism. An even greater worry. We created the organisations of muslim fanatics for our own purposes in the 1980's and by some astonishing blunders we turned them against us. Its too late to correct this now, we are at war with implacable foes and we must hunt them down root and branch. But let's stop confusing Islam and terrorism before we give Bin Laden his real victory. If, as many textbooks state, the goal of terrorism is to provoke your opponent into over reaction, our confusion of Islam and Terrorism is giving our enemy an easy victory. Remember neither Bin Laden nor Al Quaeda need to survive the war. If he has set Christianity and Islam at each others throats he has triumphed.
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: 1 2
American Kafir    RE:A complex situation   1/15/2004 11:24:10 AM
Horse puckey.
Quote    Reply

Final Historian    RE:A complex situation   1/15/2004 12:47:16 PM
When I have the time I will respond. There are a couple of things that need to be addressed here.
Quote    Reply

American Kafir    A simple situation   1/15/2004 1:35:08 PM
Upon reflection, my immediate reply of "horse puckey" is regretably my conclusion, not my argument. The debate should have come first. I really should wear a gas mask in here. We're not the ones misrepresenting Islam when we talk about Jews being blown up by "martyrs" wearing bomb belts. We take Muslims at their word on this. We understand that "jihad" is an inner struggle. Overcoming that inconvenient sense of self-preservation to do what it takes to strap on some semtex, sneak past armed security and go out and blow up yourself in the middle of a crowd of helpless "infidels" - that's quite an inner struggle indeed. These are the revered of the Islamic world. I'm frankly quite sick of the notion that I'm somehow a "bigot" if I find the deplorable madman ravings of a 7th Century moon worshipping paedophilic barbarian as equally repulsive as the actions of the terrorists it has condoned throughout the history of Islam. Actions that are celebrated even now.
Quote    Reply

Final Historian    RE:A simple situation   1/15/2004 2:42:18 PM
As I am not Jewish, I think that perhaps some of our board members who are should have a first go at it. Just doesn't seem right for me to discuss this before them.
Quote    Reply

Sherwood    Seperation of issues   1/15/2004 6:00:22 PM
Final Historian and American Kafir. On reflection there are two seperate issues in my post. 1. The nature of Israel. 2. Giving Bin Laden his victory on a plate. I put them together to illustrate the confusions and complexities of the situation. I guess I should only have written about the second as it is the most important. Can I ask respondants to treat the two issues seperately.
Quote    Reply

Final Historian    RE:Seperation of issues   1/15/2004 7:44:23 PM
Sure, I can answer number two. The conflict betweent the Muslim world and everyone else is essentially unchecked at this point. Wahhabi Imams are being sent to every corner of the globe to convert their people to Wahhabism. Unless the US and its allies does something, that will remain unchecked. In which case Bin Laden will get his goal, the Muslim world versus everyone else. The situation has developed too much now. The US/West no longer needs to do anything else to convince the Muslim world its us versus them. They are slowly being "convinced" of that even as we speak. The disease has already set in, in fact it had started well before 9/11. But it is nearly unstoppable now. Only by cutting off the source can we hope to stave off this inevitable doom.
Quote    Reply

Ex98C    RE:Seperation of issues   1/15/2004 8:52:39 PM
Well I"m not Jewish either but I will give you my opinion about the nature of Isreal. Which is that I believe that it has a right to exsist. Your description of the make-up of the various segments of Israeli society is mostly accurate. There arw a number of Arabs both christain and muslim living with-in the borders of Israel (not counting the occupied territories)). They do serrve in the Israeli army, but only as volenteers, not cnscripts. Their are deep divides in Israeli society between the european and hassidic(sp) jew the secular and the -ultra-orthodox. I would not say that their religious laws are worse than that of the Sharia, but they do come very close to matching it. There are Palastines that desire peace and warmer relations with their Israeli neighbors, unfortunately they can not speak out, if you sound too moderate you casn be branded a sympathizer and/or informated which results in beeating and often death. The overriding point in my view of the whole situation is that Israel has the right to exsist, in that I am pro-israeli. At no time has there been any indication that if given the opertunitythat the Palistineans and most arabs would eliminate Israel. So I support a string isaeli military, striking back at those that strike them. After that it becomes murkier...The Palastines deserve to live under their own rule to try and function as a society..the Jewish settlements are an attempt to take more land which I don;t agree with. I don;t want to get too deep here so to keep it simple I sympathize with the Palastinians and their plight but I fully support Isreals right to exist
Quote    Reply

appleciderus    The nature of Israel...   1/15/2004 8:57:30 PM
...…is too often described as homogenous. It is as complex and diverse as any DEMOCRACY. Any opinion that has a measurable percentage of popular support is heard from. As with all democracies, IMHO, the majority of the electorate shows great responsibility. For example, Israel voted for peace. When peace was refused by Arafat, Israel's electorate responded by ELECTING a government that would deal with Arafat. Islam could never perform politically this way, it is contrary to both the religion and it's history. Islam is a violent religion. It has not been hijacked by a fundamentalist minority sect. Muslims advocating reform, peace, modernization, or integration with other cultures (the rest of the world) are persecuted. Muslims, perhaps reluctantly, follow the orders given by clerics, no matter what their personal viewpoint is. At the risk of repeating myself, and fearing I will have the opportunity to say "I told you so", IMHO, OBL, and other terrorists exist because Islam, by it's nature, supports and encourages jihad. IMHO, peace will be achieved only when Islam is changed, either by a religious civil war (reformation) which is unlikely, or a catastrophic military defeat (nuclear), which seems near certain with Pakistani and Iranian nuclear capability. The surviving/emerging Islamic culture will no longer be a threat to the rest of the world. There is a third possibility, more fearful than the first two. Another two decades of refusing to deal adequately with the threat of fundamental islamic terrorism, offers Islam a victory on a plate.
Quote    Reply

Ex98C    RE:Seperation of issues   1/15/2004 9:08:19 PM
As to your second issue..the question goes both ways. For every Kafir who hates all muslims (or at least their faith) their is muslim who thinks the UNited States is out to destroy Islam everywhere. This is in spite of the fact the the US government has tried to make it clear that it does not hold all muslims responsible. Kafir has denigrated the Islamic faith, it is his right and Inderstand his anger. I however have studied too much history, learned of too many horrors committed in the name of Chrit andthe church to blame an entire faith for the actions of some. On the other hand there is a segment og Muslims that have declared themselves the blood emeny of the united states and have attcked our homes and our loved ones from the dark not in honorable battle. Nor do they stand before us to shout their defience and hate..instead they hide in the ocwean that is the rest of Islam taunting us daring us to strike back. So Sherwood what are we to do are we to ignore the death and destruction they have caused?We have no desire to harm ones that have not caused us harm, but make no mistake we will not allow our enemies escape our justice. Does the US want a war with the Islamic world, no we don;t. But we have learned harsh leassons over the past, that turning hte other cheek does not make the threat go away. We will morn the innocent dead and do what we can to rebuild the lives of those caught in the wirlwind, but we will crush our enemies no matter what it takes. So thats the way I see it standing right now. The united states sees itself locked in a death stuggle with those who would do us harm..and we have seen no evidence that anyone else is going to take care of the problem for us. Stop the coming war? then the muslim world needs to turn its back on the fanatics cast them out into the light where they can cause neither group harm again. ((hope this wasn't too rambling been up for the last 36 hours))
Quote    Reply

Sherwood    Replies   1/17/2004 9:49:16 AM
Ex98c You are not rambling. Your post, as usual, was cogent and clear. How you can do this after being awake so long is beyond me, my respects. I agree with your first two paragraphs without reservation. I'm becoming to think that we are in the most important struggle since WW2 and we must take actions accordingly. In reply to your other paragraphs. I am neither a US style liberal nor a pacifist. My initial post can no way be read as a "bleeding heart, all men are brothers" apologia. If it seemed so at first please re-read it. Final Historian I see your point about the Wahabis, but consider. The Islamists seem not to believe they have the hearts and minds of mainstream muslems otherwise why would they be sending their Imams to proselytise their cause. Do presbyterians in New York send missionaries to Boston? Many hate-filled anti-West remarks are aired on our media, how representative are these. Consider how the events in Iraq are distorted; concentrating on the sound-bite friendly bombings rather than the overall picture. American Kafir Thank you for giving me the courtesy, in the second post, of thinking about your counter-arguement. I look forward to reading it. The Struggle We have to win this and soon. Wa are in a struggle against people, if they cause an unbridgeable gap between the mainstream West and mainstream Islam, win. If we, as a culture, come to hate people who are of the same race or religeon as our enemy, he wins. Even if we defeat the current fighters militarily but lose our cool, he wins. This is a terrorist war whose prosecutors think in terms of generations and centuries. They have no love for their lives nor ours, the final effect is all that is important. Understanding the enemy is the first step in defeating him. To defeat them we must believe in the superiority of liberal democracy. We are in a war of ideals. Tolerance is one of our most potent weapons; let's not throw it away. Defeating the Islamists militarily is the number one priority, but doing it unjustly will mean our grandchildren will have to fight it again in a couple of generations. The next time we may not have the wealth and technology advantages we currently enjoy. Expressing hatred will drive the uncommitted into the arms of the enemy and do his work for him. Everybody has hates, my own bête noires are hard to keep under wraps. Let's be careful when expressing them when, as here, they can adversely affect a neutral reader and give ammunition to Bin Laden and his ilk. I have faith in our secular society, based on tolerance an diversity, to defeat all comers if we don't lose track of who we are. Forgive me if I'm rambling here. I'm writing this quickly as my holiday is over and I have to get back to my 70 hour week. Regards to all.
Quote    Reply
1 2