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Subject: Don't be surprised...! Cause' this doesn't look good!
Panther    3/14/2004 3:24:22 PM
Spain, trusting current reports... is about to pull out of the coalition in iraq! with a big socialist win being reported in their elections. Well... my american compadres' don't be surprised, when the spanish fury is systematically turned against us by the state. Why! Because we (supposively) LIED, and we're (Supposively) EVIL, and we're ultimately responsible for everything under the sun! To sum it up... They were tried & they proved weak! When EVIL showed it's head in madrid about 4 days ago, GOOD was taking a holiday! Farewell Spain, A very beautiful place, that's about to turn very ugly in a very short time! MY GOD, i hope i'm wrong about all of this!
 
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Roman    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 10:52:45 PM
"Roman, Do you think that would stop him from killing?" No it would not, but the nature of the killing would be different. It would be more akin to organized state violence against dissenters and against those who break an ultra strict interpretation of the Sharia Law. That is no longer terrorism (although it is no better!) - it is state violence against its own population. In any case, I am definitely not suggesting we give up! The terrorists must be crushed! I did not support the war in Iraq, because I felt it has nothing to do with terrorism at all and that Hussein posed no threat to the West, but I definitely support the war on terrorism. Even with respect to Iraq War, I was only moderately opposed to it unlike some fanatical looney opponents of the war and now that we have gone to Iraq, I believe that Slovakia needs to persevere and help the US finish the job.
 
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wildcat    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:03:22 PM
FH, Let's assume that AQ succeeds and US Allies are eliminated. So now it's just the US. The US population feeling isolated exerts pressure on the government to take no military action without international partners but there are no international partners. You're left with covert ops which are probably not sufficient for a region like Afhganistan/Pakistan border. What do you do? You are now, for the most part, always on the defensive and no defense is 100% safe. So... over time we get hit... and get hit and get hit... Until such time as the population has had enough and demands more direct action. I'm afraid that this leads to many needless deaths of innocent civillians. So, if the allies are stripped what is the most effective strateg? How do you prevent allies from being picked off in the manner described above?
 
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tank    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:06:51 PM
IF we get hit over and over as you are suggesting wildcat,nukes would enter the picture.if we are hit again chances are it will be a dirty bomb or worse.
 
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Roman    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:12:41 PM
"How do you prevent allies from being picked off in the manner described above" You should encourage European governments to shut down Muslim immigration into their countries. That will make it MUCH, MUCH more difficult for the terrorists to conduct terrorist operations in Europe and pick off European allies.
 
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wildcat    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:25:44 PM
Roman, I think we've gotten off on the wrong foot. For that, I am sorry. The point I was trying to make is that there is a theory that Bin Laden's goal is really just to kill and in numbers as large as possible. That is, he really is not concerned with the West meeting his demands. Instead, his concern is slaughtering the West. So as demands are met new demands will be made. It's just a theory and I'm not sure to what extent I agree but do think there is some validity to it and so wanted to debate it. As for the Iraq war, I consider it part of WoT with big part of national interest. National interest: Steady supply of oil to the US,EU and Asia; good base for intelligence and troops. As for Iraq WoT, I'm having 2nd thoughts. The idea of seeding liberal democracy in Iraq(i.e. reshaping the middle east) while a noble idea, it may not work. It probably makes more sense to encourage countries like Indonesia to cast out fundamentalist Islam. That is, start further out from the core fundamentalist movement and then work in.
 
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Siddar    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:31:47 PM
Europe will suffer greatly from this vote. The goal of Al Qeada is global Jihad not war agianst the USA. Taking on USA directly hasnt been working well for them at the moment but the Vote in Spain gives them a new target. If you cant defeat US by terrorism amybe you can defeat Europe with it are plunge it into a terror war with its large Muslim population. The western world is now devided into to halfs like the roman empire was with europe being the eastern half and north america being the western half. In the eyes of the global Jihadists both are of equal value but one is much weaker then the other. I see them moving to attack the weaker of the two.They would be very happy to cause violence in any quater of the western world regardless of there postion on Iraq. Remeber every Nato country was involved in war in afghanistan the only country that the jihadists considerd worthy in the eyes of God.
 
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wildcat    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:34:10 PM
Who do we nuke? It's an easy call if a state provided any assistance at all. What if there were no state sponsership? We could attack suspected safehouses(caves?). Say UBL turns up in North Korea and assume they have nuclear tipped ballistic missiles which can reach the west coast? Then what do you do?
 
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Condor Legion    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:45:18 PM
Pull the USS Iowa class out of mothballs. Not that we really need them, but they do look really fearsome sitting off somebody's coast and lobbing 16-inch shells 20 or 30 miles inland. TAKE THAT, CL.
 
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wildcat    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/14/2004 11:57:31 PM
Siddar, That's a very good point about Afghanistan. I missed it. It was their jewel, a perfect islamic society and NATO troops are on the ground there as we speak. This is a very interesting theory. If what you say is true: (1) They have 2 targets (2) Both targests are of equal value (3) 1 target is stronger and they aren't making progress there. (4) So they attack the other Why Spain? I'm missing you're reason for the Spanish election making them the target.....OH you're Roman Empire analogy.... a change in Spanish government could very well lead to the political/military alliance being severed, to a degree. Sort of a divide and conqurr scenario. Not sure how much a divide and conquer scenario works. What were you're thoughs as to the signifigance of Spanish election and the correcsping change in governments?
 
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Siddar    RE:Spain is not lost!   3/15/2004 12:08:04 AM
They killed some people and changed a goverment. They will now use that to say look were winning and it also has effect of weaking Europe. Many in Europe will now start saying dont do anything against terrorist because if we do they will attack us just like the Spanish. This will keep Europe devided and unable to mount the response needed to prevent further acts of terror. In the end for the Jihadists to win they have to destroy the world as it exists now so they may as well start with Europe the easeist target at the moment.
 
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