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Subject: Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11
Siddar    3/15/2004 9:01:49 PM
A cowardly response to terror isnt a european only diease. US response to Beruit bombing of USMC was roughly equal to spains response to madrid. The one thing we can draw from both is the terrorist will view both actions as proof that there methods can work.
 
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Final Historian    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/15/2004 9:14:05 PM
Quite astute. Reagan, who is usually known for his harsh stands against attacks on America, let that one pass. Perhaps because of the arms deals with Iran at the time? Either way, it gives the terrorists hope. After all, the point is terror.
 
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wildcat    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/15/2004 9:25:54 PM
Well... sort of.... not really... Beirut Lebanon was certainly not our finest hour. However, Mardrid is in Spain and Beruit is in not inside the US. In addition, 9-11 was a direct attack on the US and I would say the response was far from cowardly. PS I'm not laying this out there but the French were there with us Lebanon.
 
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celebrim    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/15/2004 9:57:12 PM
A good point. I think Reagan saw our intervention in Lebanon as being on behalf of the Lebanese people. We weren't exactly happy with Israel after the invasion. But when we were treated as enemies anyway, then Reagan just sort of washed his hands of the affair. We had no strategic interest in Lebanon. That was a humanitarian mission. Ditto another of America's 'not so finest hours' - Somalia. Again, Clinton caught flak for backing down, but at the time it was perfectly reasonable to consider Somalia not part of the vested interests of the US and if the people wouldn't let us help them - well it would be they and not ultimately us that suffered. In both cases, the critical factor was both Presidents rightly or wrongly saw no upside in keeping US troops amongst the barbarians and left with no regard to US 'honor'. The problem of course is that while the barbarian's concept of honor might not be all that important to us, it is very important to the barbarians. As a result the barbarians infered, that if we were willing to toss our 'honor' and run, it must be because weak and fearful because in thier own societies only the weak and fearful can't or don't protect thier 'honor'. They fail to understand that what we consider honorable is entirely different than what they consider honorable. They don't realize that we didn't consider our honor to truly be at stake. But there are key differences in Beruit and Madrid. Madrid can't be said to not be in Spain's vital interest. You can't just decide to wash your hands of the problem. You can't just decide to leave. More importantly, even by Western definitions of honor, the honor of the country is clearly at stake. They have been directly attacked, thier nation emperiled, and innocents murdered. Western cultures don't care much about shame, but shame should not be the source of courage. The US could pull out of Somalia without shame, because it was only in Somalia in the first place out of a sense of guilt and obligation. But how can you allow your children to be murdered, or the children of your neighbors to be murdered, and not be motivated to resist by every means available? Have we forgotten our chivalry? Maybe it should be beneath or dignity to fight with 'peasants', but if the innocent are endangered, does not justice call? There is no shame in walking away from a fight, but shouldn't there be great guilt in walking away from a victim? We are taught to turn the other cheek, and to be thankful for insults, but not to be cowards. What kind of man loves his neighbor by leaving him or her in distress at the hands of criminals? Those streets filled of people with thier hands raised in the air has to be one of the most shameful things I've ever seen.
 
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Romani    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/16/2004 7:36:20 AM
>Those streets filled of people with thier hands raised in the air has to be one of the most shameful things I've ever seen< As a Spaniard I've to say you are mistaken. It's not a surrender sign, it's a gesture to show hands are clean of bloodstains, of rejection against terrorisms. I personally consider it a futile gesture, and the demonstrations more an outlet for rage and grief than any thing procuctive. Raised fists would be a more acceptable gesture. Not all Spaniards are cowards, we will have to wait until the next terrorist attack to see wether courage or fear will prevail.
 
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American Kafir    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/16/2004 8:25:08 AM
>>Not all Spaniards are cowards, we will have to wait until the next terrorist attack to see wether courage or fear will prevail<< Blah blah blah bullsh*t. The only thing Spain Al-Andalous has shown is that if you really want them to side with your cause, you've got to bomb them first. On September 11th, 2001, the United States was attacked by terrorists. Some 3000 innocents died. The American people rallied to FIGHT. The government spoke of a war on terrorism that would require at least a 50 year commitment to spreading freedom and democracy around the world, snuffing out terrorism where it breeds. On March 11th, 2004, Spain was attacked by terrorists. Some 200 innocents died. The Spanish people swore never to disobey terrorists again, and to blame America for their misfortune. I'll grant that not all Spaniards are cowards. I'm sure if you searched every inch of the country, you might find three.
 
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Roman    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/16/2004 2:25:04 PM
Please stop it American Kafir - it is not funny! The vote was close and nearly 50% of the Spanish people voted for Anzar's party. Your constant accusations against the Spanish as cowards therefore hold not water. In any case, there is an election in the USA in a few months. Bush will likely loose, so do not be so confident...
 
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Sikman    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/16/2004 3:01:38 PM
Unfortunately most of the Western secular world are cowards. This is sad because the Muslims seem to love death more than we love life. There are no countries anymore in a war like this. It is a war of empires, our empire like it or not includes western Europe, North America and all democratic nations. The other empires are the communist countries and of course the third way which is made up of the anti-democratic muslims and neo nazis/fascists. Unfortunately we are unwilling to even face our enemy, invading Iraq and Afghanistan left not a dent in the Muslim barbarian hordes. Unfortunately there are only two ways to go about defeating Islam and fascism, either you kill a lot of people, not just sit in an enemy country and open yourselves up to attacks, but really truly spill their blood. Or you can convince them to change their ways (fat chance) with the threat of them being totally anhialated. Unfortunately we the western world will sit back and take nothing but half measures until there is a nuclear attack on one of our major cities, or the equivalent there of. Then the tide of the war will be turned and we will be victorious after nuking the muslim world into paradise.
 
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celebrim    RE: I feel his pain but...   3/16/2004 3:06:32 PM
I agree American Kafir is getting a little over the top (not just here but the incessent tone of his posts). Judging the whole of the Spainish people as cowards based on the actions of the plurality is not fair. I'm sure there are plenty of Spainards making the same sort of observations about the 6% or whatever that paniced and did the cowardly thing as you are. I'm sure that there are quite a few Spainards who are ashamed of thier country as well. No point in us rubbing it in. I know you are deliberately exagerrating to make a point, but I'll agree with Roman here, that you are taking it too far - and I'll add that there is a point beyond which things like metaphor and exagerration become counterproductive for making your point. I may be guilty of that myself, but in my defense I'll say I was trying to counterbalance a faction that was trying to play this down as no big thing. If I've offended any Spainards here, I apologize. But I want you to understand something. 9-11 hurt alot. 9-11 left me grieving for about a year. 9-11 left me very angry. But the Spainish election did something for me that 9-11 never did. After the government in Spain collapsed in the face of attack, for the first time since this war started I was scared - and am still scared. I was plenty angry after 9-11, but never for a second did I think there was any chance I'd be on the losing side. After Spain fell, for the first time I had to start contemplating that possibility. So in its own way, 3-11 is hurting more than 9-11 right now. If more countries (including my own) scare that easily we could be living in the last days of Democracy and civil liberties worldwide, and I got deal with that specter as the future of my family. So no, I'm not a happy person right now listening to the lies and equivication coming out of that communist you've elected. I think if someone comes up to me and asks me some claptrap like, "Have you ever stopped to consider why they hate you/us?", I'm going to knock that person's teeth through the back of his head and ask him, "Have you ever stopped to consider that sometimes people don't need a good reason?" I'd like to take this time to make another plug for a very good sci-fi book by Iain M. Banks called 'The Player of Games'. Please, everyone living in a Western country read that book.
 
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bsl    RE: I feel his pain but...   3/16/2004 3:53:45 PM
The fact is that in addition to the war between Islam and the rest of the world, we are in a struggle to determine the direction the West will take for the foreseeable future. It is not helpful to respond to problems like the Spanish election by taunting all of Spain. Goodness knows I've done similar things where the French are concerned. (And, goodness knows they deserve it.) But, this sort of emotional response can't possibly help, and might actually increase the centrifugal tendencies in the West. Romani is right; European opinion is not monolithic. We're in fight for the definition of "right" and if we just write off Europe, we will soon find ourself in a markedly more isolated position in a markedly more dangerous world. Was it better to sit, smug, behind the Atlantic Ocean, berating the stupid Europeans of the 1930s till we were dragged into WW2? Or, might it have been a better idea to support the people whom we agreed with *before* Mussolini and Hitler won power?
 
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American Kafir    RE:Madrid was Europes Beruit not there 9/11   3/16/2004 4:10:11 PM
>>Please stop it American Kafir - it is not funny! The vote was close and nearly 50% of the Spanish people voted for Anzar's party. Your constant accusations against the Spanish as cowards therefore hold not water.<< You are either with us, or with the terrorists. There are no borders in this war, no neutral positions. Al Qaeda kills Iraqi people as well. Should the Iraqi people make amends by putting Saddam Hussein's boot back on their neck? I'm sorry if my criticism of al-Andalous is a bit harsh. That's not my intention at all. I'm actually going for merciless vehemence. I'm just getting warmed up. For 2.5 years I have heard nothing but "It's America's fault because X" where X = the square root of leftist bullsh*t multiplied by the number of idiots who parrot it like good little groupthinking Nazis. Al-Andalous is free to respond to the demands of terrorists as best they see fit. Just as America's response to international terrorism has been with a steel resolve in the face of haughty international criticism, Spain's response to international terrorism will have to endure a similar riposte. Isn't it wonderful that we can still exchange ideas freely? That is, unless Osama Bin Laden wants the Andalusians to stop talking to America. I understand. You don't want to upset any known terror cell members on watch lists still walking on the streets of Madrid.
 
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