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Subject: Jordan's Queen Noor goes down babbling
SGTObvious    5/6/2004 7:33:03 PM
Asked, what causes Terrorism: Poverty Asked, if the cause is pooverty, why is it Arab and not African, Asian, or Latin American terrorists knocking down our buildings: "I think that is a difficult and complex question blah blah blah blah" On the other hand, what the heck did they expect her to say? "Because we Arabs regard vengeance, hatred, and violence as high ideals."
 
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swhitebull    RE:Poverty - Nope   9/12/2004 9:03:27 PM
You assert without offering any evidence that poverty is one of the roots causes of terrorism. That sounds nice, and makes it easier to blame the United States for causing the conditions in the world where poverty flourishes, becauswe of our rapacious policies, right. Please tell that to millionaire Osama bin Laden, or his minions. The 19 Muslims who killed 3000 americans and other nationals on 9/11/2001 came from middle or upper class backgrounds, well =-educated and were committed fundamentalists. Many Palestinians - NOT the mules, but the planners and leaders - follow the same pattern. ESPECIALLY among the few homocide bombers that have cropped up. Please provide ANY evidence of your claims, as most sociologists I have read - along with the major news magazine - TIME, newsweek, USNWR and The Economist - conclude that affluence and education NOT poverty, are the main determinants. As evidence - http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-radu042902.asp April 29, 2002“Root Cause” Futility Terrorism cannot be explained. By Michael Radu Socioeconomic grievances, or so some assert, explain (though they do not justify) terrorism in general and Islamic terrorism in particular — the factors Al Gore called this past February "another axis of evil in the world: poverty and ignorance; disease and environmental disorder; corruption and political oppression," all of which lead to terrorism. But do they? It is hubris to attempt to explain terrorism in general, let alone in its many different forms across time and place. The following observations are therefore intended only to refocus the debate, not to "explain" terrorism. The desire to identify "root causes" and so be able to correct them is natural. Root causes "have" to be there — at least in the American mind. There must be an explanation for the inexplicable: Why a teenaged Palestinian girl would blow herself up in an attempt to kill as many Jews as possible, or privileged young men of the Arab world plot to kill themselves while murdering thousands of American civilians. But much as the frequently asked question this fall, "Why do they hate us?" had flawed premises and yielded flawed answers, framing the question as "What are the root causes of terrorism?" leads too easily to looking at the usual suspects: "poverty," "injustice," "exploitation," and "frustration." Like the man in the parable who looks for his lost keys under the streetlight instead of where he lost them because "the light's better," it's easier to look in these familiar areas than to face and address the real problems. Those who hold to "poverty as the root cause" do so even though the data does not fit their model. Even leaving aside multimillionaire Osama bin Laden, the backgrounds of the September 11 killers indicates that they were without exception scions of privilege: All were either affluent Saudis and Egyptians, citizens of the wealthy Gulf statelets, or rich sons of Lebanon, trained in and familiar with the ways of the West — not exactly the victims of poverty in Muslim dictatorships. Many poor Egyptians, Moroccans, and Palestinians may support terrorists, but they do not — and cannot — provide them with recruits. In fact, al Qaeda has no use for illiterate peasants. They cannot participate in World Trade Center-like attacks, unable as they are to make themselves inconspicuous in the West and lacking the education and training terrorist operatives need. Indeed, ever since the Russian intellectuals "invented" modern terrorism in the 19th century, revolutionary violence — terrorism is just one form of it — has been a virtual monopoly of the relatively privileged. Terrorists have been middle class, often upper class, and always educated, but never poor. The South American Tupamaros and Montoneros of the 1970s were all middle class, starting as cafe Jacobins and graduating into urban terrorism, as were their followers among the German Baader-Meinhof Gang, the Italian Red Brigades, France's Action Directe, the Sandinista leadership in Nicaragua and, before it, Fidel Castro's Cuban revolutionaries. Considering the composition of many of the antiglobalist groups today, it is a safe bet that middle class, prosperous, and self-righteous as they are, they will soon provide the recruits of a new wave of terrorism in the West — as we may already be seeing in the revival of Italy's Red Brigades. To say that economic conditions are not the root cause of terrorism is not to say that the there are no conditions that correlate strongly to political violence and terrorism. There are phenomena we should be concerned about in this regard, it is just that they are far less obvious than poverty and much more complex to address. Environmentalist extremists, their animal-rights friends, anti-international corporation militants, anti-genetically modified plants fanatics a la Jose Bove — the world's best known vandal — none of them poor or underpri
 
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Judy G    RE:Poverty - Nope   9/12/2004 10:05:23 PM
ok, well, what about fighting *for* those who are under privileged? che guevara is no low-class idiot, he was a medical student before he decided to take on whom he thought were evil politicians. i'm not saying he's a terrorist, either, i am saying that it is the *cause* of the poor that drive people of conviction to assert their case and make their points.
 
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swhitebull    RE:Poverty - Nope   9/12/2004 10:25:43 PM
...ok, well, what about fighting *for* those who are under privileged? che guevara is no low-class idiot, he was a medical student before he decided to take on whom he thought were evil politicians. i'm not saying he's a terrorist, either, i am saying that it is the *cause* of the poor that drive people of conviction to assert their case and make their points.. Would you care to explain the agenda of the Baader-Menhof, the Rota Brigada, November 17, Who were these people fighting for? Do you really want to discuss Che and the Foco movements of revolutionary warfare? Ten you have to go back to the Castro revolution of 1958 - again, someone who came from a privileged background, and how Che learned and practiced his trade? None of these fought "FOR" the underprivileged; they might have adpoted a pseudo-communist manifesto and fought WITH the "underprivileged", but to be honest, if you dont mobilize the privileged and more numerous middle class, you dont stand a snowball's chance in hell of waging a successful revolution. Quick question. Why did the Cuban government fall so quickly to castro? and why did the Nicaraguan govt fall so quickly to the Sandinistas? And why did the Shah fall to the Khomeniites? Answer the obvious, and you win a no-prize. swhitebull
 
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Judy G    RE:Poverty - Swhitebull   9/12/2004 10:29:30 PM
...so if they're not fighting for the underprivileged, what or who are they fighting for? in your opinion? what is, for instance, castro's raison d'etre? to piss off floridians? seriously. what do you think?
 
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displacedjim    RE:Poverty - Nope   9/12/2004 10:39:59 PM
Swhitebull, don't cut Paul G off so fast; I'm willing to entertain this line of reasoning. "I believe poverty is a necessary precursor ingredient for those that resort to terrorism. The tactics of violence is used to raise awareness and lash out at those who would oppress." -- Paul G --- "ok, well, what about fighting *for* those who are under privileged? che guevara is no low-class idiot, he was a medical student before he decided to take on whom he thought were evil politicians. i'm not saying he's a terrorist, either, i am saying that it is the *cause* of the poor that drive people of conviction to assert their case and make their points." -- Paul G --- Ah, I think he's actually on the right tack: it's advocating the "cause" of the poor that leads people of education and privilege to resort to fighting "for" the under-privileged. You see, it's recognition of their underprivileged status and a concern for getting them out of it that leads others to resort to fighting on their behalf. Note the oppressed don't fight for themselves; apparently the poor sods have been exploited for so long they don't even recognize they're being held down by The Man. There it is: terrorism isn't caused by injustice or poverty, it's caused by socialists who believe in forced equality of outcome/class warfare. Displacedjim
 
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displacedjim    RE:Poverty - Swhitebull   9/12/2004 10:45:18 PM
Well, Judy, why don't we ask him--since he's still the dictator over the underprivileged people he ostensibly liberated from a dictator over 40 years ago. Well, I think that answered the question (to my satisfaction, anyway). If Castro had led their revolution to victory, ***and then stepped aside for the people to choose their leader***--THEN I'd believe he did it "for the underprivileged." Displacedjim
 
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swhitebull    RE:Poverty - Nope   9/12/2004 11:01:19 PM
Im going to scan a long out of print article that appeared in issue number 120 of Strategy & Tactics magazine, written by Joseph Miranda back in 1988. Miranda was a captain in PsyOps and Military Police Operations back in the 1980s, and is now the editor of S&T magazine, whose longtime editor is THE editor and chief writer of this Web Site - James Dunnigan. This is an EXCELLENT article on Why People Revolt, and discusses the use of terrorist tactics in waging revolutionary warfare. The above mentioned groups - baader-meinhof, rota brigada, etc. subscribed to a romanticized version of communism - free- the - oppressed people mumbo jumbo. What they DID was practice murder, extortion, kidnapping, etc. In essence, no more than thugs who overlay their criminal activities with a thin veneer of ideology. Most, if not ALL, of the members of these groups came from the intelligentisa, affluent, bored. To answer my own question, these regimes fell quickly NOT because the poor rose up and overthrew the government, but that the government failed to meet the needs of the middle class in combatting the attacks of terrorism etc,. They fell quickly thereafter. I know I have oversimplified, but when I get this article scanned and then posted to the website, it will go into great detail. swhitebull
 
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