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Subject: Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly
Omnione    9/18/2004 11:32:50 PM
Why don't the good Muslim miniters tell the world how wrong these guys are blowing up innocent people?
 
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American Kafir    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   9/27/2004 8:46:16 PM
"Why don't the good Muslim miniters tell the world how wrong these guys are blowing up innocent people" "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Quran 9:5 In other words, the good Muslims are too busy killing innocent people to listen to "idolaters" tell them how to interpret the Quran.
 
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AirForceOne    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   9/28/2004 12:15:56 AM
""In other words, the good Muslims are too busy killing innocent people to listen to "idolaters" tell them how to interpret the Quran."" Or in other words, the good majority (7%) Muslims are busy praising for terrorists that they don't have time to condemn and apologize for them. Religion of Peace?? 93% of Minority supports Iraqi Kidnappings. Arabs ambivalent over hostage crisis By Sebastian Usher BBC World Media correspondent The fate of two kidnapped Italian aid workers remains unclear The Arab media has presented the latest hostage crisis in Iraq as just another element in the bloody and chaotic pattern of violence in the country. The latest developments have been reported and often broken on Arab television channels, but they have soon been superseded by bloodshed elsewhere in Iraq or in the Palestinian territories and Israel. There has been little sign of the outrage that greeted the kidnapping of two French hostages last month and none of the soul-searching prompted by the Beslan siege. The issue of foreign hostages in Iraq was examined this week on the most heated discussion programme on the Middle East's most-watched television station, al-Jazeera. Television debate In the programme The Opposite Direction a fiercely anti-American political analyst, Talat Rumayh, faced off against an Iraqi politician, Karim Badr. In the Arab media the plight of Iraqis and Palestinians overshadows that of the hostages Mr Rumayh claimed that the kidnappers were Iraqi resistance fighters and compared the number of their victims to the thousands of Iraqis, who had been killed: "Two thousand people have been killed since the beginning of the attack on Falluja, which was dismissed in one report, one line or just a couple of words... while we keep hearing about the hostages. It's the hostages and the terrorists, always the terrorists," he said. Karim Badr responded by saying all Iraq was disgraced by the beheadings. "We have to prove our humanity. I am addressing my brethren in Iraq: These are masked creatures that resemble humans, who I am certain are uglier than their deeds," he said. "Is the killing of people and exploding cars in the streets an act of resistance? Is the kidnapping and murder of people in this manner an act of resistance? I am certain they do not represent the Iraqi conscience in any way at all." Viewers 'unmoved' Viewers were unmoved. In a phone poll 93% supported the kidnappings. The kidnappers' demands are limited to Iraq, whose political and security problems remain the focus of Arab attention rather than the fate of Western hostages A little later - after the beheading of the second American hostage - an Iraqi religious leader told al-Jazeera that the foreign hostages were capturing the world's attention at the expense of the Iraqi people's suffering. In the Arab media, naturally enough, this order is reversed - with the plight of Iraqis and Palestinians overshadowing that of the hostages. But this is not to say that the Arab satellite channels have ignored the human impact of the story - the hostages' relatives appeared live on al-Jazeera, hoping to convey their pleas for mercy directly to the kidnappers. The Arab press has also, in the past, condemned Abu Musab al-Zarqawi as a thug who perverts Islam. But there has not been the same outcry as when two French journalists were taken hostage and their kidnappers demanded that France rescind its ban on Islamic headscarves in schools. Then, many Arab commentators warned that the kidnappers' actions could irrevocably tarnish the image of Islam and the Arab world. This time, the kidnappers' demands are limited to Iraq, whose political and security problems remain the focus of Arab attention rather than the fate of Western hostages. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3684324.stm
 
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jastayme3    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   11/13/2004 3:23:25 PM
Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly? ___________________________________________ a partial answer is that if they condemn loudly they are likly to be beheaded loudly i have read descriptions of the early communist revoulution. what happend is that the high command was constantly shifting it's doctrine and the only way to have a reasonably sure chance of survival was to be more extremist then their neighbors. It was in fact rather like a stock bubble(i love the irony of using a capitalist anology). No one knew when the "price"-party doctrine-would peak, but every one wanted to "sell their stock"(get the parties favor)for a higher profit. Except in this case those who succeeded got an empire and those who failed got an unmarked grave. The Islamicists are in this stage right now. They are competing to be most extreme. Those who mimic them have little to fear from the West for merely having an overly large mouth. Those who keep silent have little to gain and much to lose by speaking out against the terrorists so they keep silent. In the West it is more complicated. A lot of Westerners have sympathised with quite odious foreign causes throughout the twentieth century and this is somewhat more of the same. As for Moslems that live in Western countries, well their sympathies are naturally divided-whose would not be? In any case many people, not just moslems find it hard to condemn evil deeds done in the name of the group they identify with. No one wants to yield ground to "the other"(not even the academicians who talk most about "the other"). Moslems should indeed disavow terrorists. But hippies should disavow tree spiking and Molotovs,Irish should disavow the IRA, Ulstermen should disavow their counterpart and so on. Perhaps some of these already have. I know perfectly well that Evangelicals officially condemned the abortion clinic bombings quite strongly-it was all over our newsletters; but that fact is not advertised in the news. These is of course an incomplete answer to the question.
 
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jastayme3    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   11/13/2004 10:08:41 PM
"Why don't the good Muslim miniters tell the world how wrong these guys are blowing up innocent people" "So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Quran 9:5 In other words, the good Muslims are too busy killing innocent people to listen to "idolaters" tell them how to interpret the Quran. ----------------------------------------- Perhaps. On the other hand that particular verse can be interpreted as simply saying to make war on "the infidel" not massacare him("slaying" "besieging" and "lying in wait in ambush" at least are not strictly speaking against the Geneva Convention, though making war against "the infidel" merely because he is an "infidel" is generally not considered appropriate). Also it might be noted that a considerable number of Muslims havn't read the Koran in the first place due to living in portions of the world where education is scarce. This is not meant as an implication of unintelligence in Muslims(I am well aware that others live in such places). It is meant to point out that the behavior of the Islamiscists cannot be wholely gotten from the Koran. "Jihading" is of course nothing new: it has been a strain in Islam sense it's founding. It wasn't caused by the crusades-it existed before and had been directed against peoples who had nothing conceivable to do with it. However terrorism in the form we are fammiliar with is not an Islamic phenomenon(except for the old Assasins cult): it is a European phenomenon, borrowed from the custom of forming conspiracies of the dissafected in the Balkans and Central Europe. Lenin-or Hitler are as much the fathers of al-queda as Mohammad, probably more. Also it might be recalled that Moslems vary as much as any other religions. A lot of Moslems are Moslems because their dad was a Moslem. Others concentrate on the more mild facets. Note: to preempt sarcastic questions, no I can't give an encyclopedic overview of Islam-what I know comes from history books and travelogs not Islamic philosophers. ask Ilpars-who certainly does condemn terrorists by the way. Anyway it is somewhat irrelevant to our purposes whether or not terrorism is approved of by proper Muslim theology. If you interviewed a hundred Moslem scholars you would probably still come away unsure. The question is rather how many Moslems think Islam approves terrorism. Which is indeed a sticky question. More how many Moslems are capable of acting on that opinion(it makes little difference if say, a Moslem stranded on a desert island believes in terrorism). And how long will the terrorist fashion last. Sooner or latter the main attitude will be "sure, sure, slay the infidel, but after my nap OK" Islam is not a fanatical monolith. Moslems are affected by fear, greed, and sloth too. The suicide bombers are a deception: if westerners thought it worth the bother they could probably find(or "make"...)a number of suicide bombers of their own. The display of fanaticism unnerves people. But fanatics are not bulletproof. People who depend on emotion rather than discipline run toward the rear as easily as toward the front. Nor do fanatics represent the majority of Islam: it is to a large degree theatrics, both by the leaders and the individuals. The majority are somewhere between "Allah didn't command this but what about this" and "yeah, yeah slay the infidel whatever".Or "speak softly and you won't get hit by a big stick". Or something along the line: the way most of us would be in a simmilar situation for few of us are saints. Of the louder types a number are acting to survive and gain power. There are Moslem hypocrites too. As for why good Moslems don't condemn loudly, well they are between a rock and a hard place having to please both groups. They still have to live among other Moslems or go into exile from their groups to escape being called "traitor". Peer-pressure may be even stronger than fear. To use the inevitable "reductio ad Hitlerum" the Germans were willing to face the Russians but they were afraid to disobey their own government. Partly because their own families were now put into the scale. But also partly because they were less afraid of death then of dying alone. In the same way the good Muslims are motivated by their neighbors into being more quiet. Again all this is incomplete.
 
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FJV    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   11/14/2004 4:06:38 PM
They get killed/harrassed by fundamentalists if they do even in Western nations (just look at Rushdie). And when they do are routinely ignored by the media. (as with Sheikh Abdul Hadi Palazzi)
 
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FJV    RE:Why don't the good Muslims Condem Loudly   11/14/2004 4:08:17 PM
Oh and there is the OJ Simpson effect, where minorities don't want to condemn errors within that minority. (He's a bastard, but he's OUR bastard)
 
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