"I didn't title the thread, "Imperialist Fascist President Stiffs Poor" or something like that. I posted it as I did because I was genuinely curious what people would have to say about whether or not there was a legitimate opportunity there. Of course, people immediately began, as usual, attacking me on the assumption that I have an agenda that I'm trying to push." Gee, I wonder where they would get that idea? Quote: "US President George W. Bush has missed an important opportunity to reach out to the Muslims of Indonesia. The Bush administration at first pledged a paltry $15 million, a mysteriously chintzy response to what was obviously an enormous calamity. Bush himself remained on vacation, and now has reluctantly agreed to a meeting of the National Security Council by video conference. If Bush were a statesman, he would have flown to Jakarta and announced his solidarity with the Muslims of Indonesia (which has suffered at least 40,000 dead and rising)." The audacity of you claiming that you don't have an agenda after posting a peice like that is astounding. That is hardly the sort of statement made by someone with a mere intellectual couriousity. As for what the responce would be from the Wahhabi community had the U.S. responded in that manner, it would breakdown into two things: 1) "This is simply a Zionist plot by the Imperialist Crusaders to impose thier decadent Western ideas on Islamic states. The money is being used to prop up the Kafr government in Jakarta." 2) "See how Allah blesses the righteous and confuses our enemies, for lo, see how he even causes our enemies to provide us with the monies that we use against him." If you don't believe me, feel free to browse some Islamic bulletic boards. I'm not making these things up. So no, to satisfy your couriousity, there is no lost oppurtunity to make a good impression. Nor is there in fact any such lost oppurtunity. US and western aid in general will arrive and will save as many lives as it is able to do so, no matter how quickly total pledges were reached. Practical aid cannot be delivered at above a certain rate anyway, and the main thing needed for the momment is not dollars but manpower - of which the US can provide more than anyone. It would be a mistake to think that we can buy anyone's gratitude with charity (most people resent charity or else decide that they are entitled to it, and if you don't know that then you haven't volunteered much of your time in charities), but what little gratitude we actually recieve will come from the actual victims and not from middle class moslems in Egypt, Saudia Arabia, or anywhere else. These will persist in whatever preconcieved notions positive or negative that they happen to have regardless of what we do. Lastly, in terms of making a good impression, the real losers in this disaster aren't the Christians or the Moslems, but the Hindu's. Both the Christians and the Moslems will probably pick up a significant number of converts in Sri Lanka and India, because in the immediate aftermath of the disaster all reports I'm seeing is that the Christians and Moslems went about helping thier neighbor and organized local relief efforts, while many of the Hindu in the region refused to give thier neighbors aid because the fisherman belonged to low a caste to touch. Food for thought.

>>why does american kafir call hitler a lefty? don't get it.<< For many reasons, the least of which is that he was a leftist. You can't go around screaming "We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions" without pretty much annihilating any thinking person's impression that you might be a right-winger. Nor does Hitler and the Nazi Party's similar to 21st Century Democrat views on race, sexuality, bio-ethics, art, culture, criminology / sociology, and gun control lead anyone of greater intelligence than chalk dust to believe Hitler was right-wing either. Does this clarify?

"But again, when it comes to sinking to vile levels to make a political argument, the right wing is so laughably off-the-charts that I can't possibly be anything but amused by your comment. " By all means, be 'amused' by my comment: of course an honest debator would rebut my points, not make snide insults. The article in question was simply using this horrid disaster as an excuse to make a purely political attack, and you darn well knew that when you posted it, dont pretend otherwise. But instead of admitting to this fact like an adult, you simply choose to insult others and to hide behind an "others do it" defense. You whine about people making political attacks but you are just as, or more, guilty as anyone here in that field. NewGuy

Leo sputtered - "all aid is welcome and the private philanthropy that has come out of America is amazing and inspiring. But nothing can take the place of the government's ability to mobilize resources, the government's invaluable military assets, or the foreign policy value of a strong official response." This is why the word "leftist" is quickly becoming shorthand for "a blithering idiot who always leaps up to make sure everyone is aware of his stupidity before being pounded by reality." The US Navy was already ferrying assistance to the stricken nations within hours of the tsunami. Within a week, the US Government upped it's financial commitment from $15 million to $350 million, while US private donors have raised a similar, independent amount. And thorough this week, while leftists sat in their leisure ashes and designer sackcloths tearing at themselves wailing about how horribly stingy the US government (a.k.a. the American people) are, a relief effort is already underway that otherwise left to leftists would still be in the committee-member selection process of forming a planning committee sometime next year at the United Nations.

>>I would say, that making good will gestures in this context is rather to be seen as muslim success in blackmail.<< Bingo. But when Leo is so eager to trot out anything to club Bush's foreign policy with, how can you not conclude that he, like all leftists, believes that paying terrorists not to blow you up is the ideal national security arrangement. This is the "opportunity" we "missed." If Leo wants to pay terrorists not to blow him up, that's fine. I'm sure he'll do well in French politics or as a member of the Saudi royal family. But out here in the Red states, that kind of talk'll get your head blown off.

Reprinted from NewsMax.com Sunday, Jan. 2, 2005 1:37 p.m. EST Red State Populations on the Rise Rising populations in America's Southern and Western states will soon eclipse state-by-state populations in the Northeast and Midwest, according to recent Census Bureau estimates - a demographic shift that could have a significant impact on America's political future. "It's the New America," said William Frey, a demographer at Washington's Brookings Institution. "It's taking population and political clout from the highly urbanized Old America," he told USA Today. The impact of the population shift to Red State America is already being felt at the polls. Of the 10 states on the Bureau's list of fastest-growing populations, for instance, nine went to President Bush in the 2004 election. States on the population growth list include Florida, Nevada, New Mexico and North Carolina. Population losers include liberal bastions like New York and Massachusetts. "By 2010, none of the three most populous states will be in the North," said Robert Lang, director of the Metropolitan Institute at Virginia Tech. Most of these Northern states voted for Kerry. One bright light for Democrats - immigration is a major factor in U.S. population growth, and new arrivals tend to skew liberal. But even that's a mixed blessing for Blue Staters. While many Northern states gained immigrants from 2003 to 2004, they lost longtime residents to other states. Meanwhile, most of the fastest-growing states are gaining new residents from other states, as well as immigrants from abroad.

>> But again, when it comes to sinking to vile levels to make a political argument, the right wing is so laughably off-the-charts that I can't possibly be anything but amused by your comment. << http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/35-38059.asp http://www.strategypage.com/messageboards/messages/35-37935.asp .

"The practical problem is that damage sites are very confused and aid is very often wasted because of lack of coordination, this should push the balance towards government organisations, but then obvious political agendas spring up." This is a good point, although I think it trails off in an unproductive direction. And, btw, it reinforces my own point, in response to the idiotic attacks on America in the first few days after the tsunami. This is why it's SOP for the world to begin relief operations cautiously. What's actually happened is never clearly understood in the first hours. It takes time for information to be gathered. And, since each site is inevitably part of someone's country, foreign contingents, military or civilian, which simply rush in and set up shop without bothering to coordinate with the local government have, in effect, conducted an invasion, whatever their good motives. I'm not sure Thomas' point about 'agendas' is meaningful or significant. Everyone has agendas. The UN Secretariat clearly does, for instance. The real issue is whether whomeever claims to want to help really does help, or mostly just prances about, polishing their own reputation. American and Australian forces showed up within a few days, and began to do real jobs. Some NGOs have, too. Others seem to be more busy holding press conferences. The Israeli military had something like 80 tons of supplies heading for Sri Lanka within a few days. The Swedes, apparently, are going through a political crisis right now, because their government didn't bother to come into work on Boxing Day to deal with what may be as many as several thousand dead Swedes who had been in the region. (And, btw, I think the lack of clear figures on the fates of European, American, Japanese tourists in the area, so far, suggests that death numbers will continue to rise.)

Thank you BSL, that was exactly my point. You can pledge all the money you want x short hours after a disaster, but what really counts is what you actually DO to help. Leo and his American-bashing ilk dont care about this point, apparently their first priority is to make political gain from the disaster. I note for all here that Leos first post on the forum related to this catastrophe was an attack piece on the Bush administration...sorta highlights my point above rather clearly, huh? NewGuy

Good point bsl! When You are in such dire straits - you don't care what agenda the helper has - you are fighting for your life. I have for long argued for a Dansih relief force with rescue workers, rescue equipment and using military equipment such as transport planes helicopters etc. Sort of rapid deployment brigade - leaving the gun behind (but with the opportunity - depending on the situation - of sending nasties with them). It was one of my arguments for keeping the old Herky birds, so we would have a surge ability. It was one of my arguments for the augmentation of the rescue-helicopter purchase (the crews were free, as we had 17 crews for 8 heloes) we are now phasing in 14 Merlin replacing 8 S-61. (I quoted the moneyamount wrong it is ½ billion DDK not USD) Denmark is sending a hospital, helicopters and the Herky birds have been flying their little wings of. The political agenda: Well; small countries are in good posistion there: Who will expect Denmark to invade Thailand???? In sum I do side with government aid, as they have resources to draw on - trained for another purpose; but the transports, and hospitals are there!