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Subject: What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?
Scorpene    7/16/2005 1:14:24 PM
If I could mainly get some replies from Europeans on this one, it would be icing on the cake. By all indicators, Islamic power in Europe, particularly the Continent, is on the rise. France and Germany and the Netherlands all have been in the news due to various disturbances and acts of terrorism and murder. I used to say that if I was a Russian defense planner I would be going nuts-- but I would rather be a Russian defense planner than someone who was charged with figuring out how to keep Europe from a religious and social upheaval the likes of which haven't been seen since the Middle Ages between Islam and the West. My perception of Europe is that at some point in the future, if things continue to worsen (and it appears they will) the Europeans may just decide to do what must be done to fix things, even if that means some serious bloodshed. Forced deportations, preventative internment, or numerous nonsociable calls by GSG-9 and GIGN or similar. Or, perhaps even worse. Now, I am NOT judging the Europeans. The U.S. has no situation like this-- our Mexican border problem is tame by comparison in my opinion, as Mexicans and all have generally assimilated acceptably; I am not trying to say what Europe should or should not do. I am asking what Europe will do, if indeed the situation continues to escalate. No moral judgements or talking down here. Just the facts. Europe is in for a rough ride, and I don't envy them. Period.
 
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Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/29/2005 11:00:25 AM
Pseudonym: That's just silly rethoric. All this killing is just horrible, and that's all there is to it. People here (Netherlands) aren't too concerned - they don't realise yet a bomb might go off in their backyard; they know the theory but haven't seen it happen yet, so it's the Not-My-Problem-Show all over again... They're not scared because they don't (or don't want to) know exactly what to fear. So they just ignore it, which is hard to base a policy on. A lot of my friends (as well as myself) think it doesn't matter anyway: if a bomb goes of, it will. All you can do is watch out and take care - being afraid doesn't help anyone. I feel this attack will happen, probably in my town (the Hague) because the government is there, but on the other hand it doesn't matter - if it's supposed to happen, it will. Now, if someone might say that's laissez-faire politics (insh'allah in arabic :) ... I'm not going to change my ways (which I deem correct, polite and friendly) 'cos some bastard tries to blow me to pieces. I will continue to do what I think is right (peaceful co-existence with everything), if only to give the right example. Even if it does kill me. This kind of people will go away one day; humanity has been around for ten thousand years and some time in the next oh... hundred centuries, we will have peace. To me, that's all what matters, even if I won't be around to see it. The best tactic or policy (I think) is to a) love every living being b) be at peace with yourself c) not worry so much d) live with it All else, to me, is superfluous. It's like what my granddad taught me: If someone wants to fight you, the best reaction is to run away quickly. (But then, he fought the Germans in WW2 :)
 
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FJV    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/29/2005 12:15:56 PM
I as a Dutchman was very suprised at the reaction of the Dutch people to the van Gogh murder. Here was just 1 man killed and already there were multiple arson attacks on mosques and Islamic schools. This indicated (to me at least) that there is more hatred buried below the surface than I suspected. If with 1 man killed the reactions are already that violent, then what will the reaction be if 40 or 50 are killed?
 
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swhitebull    Slow Decline into Dhimmitude - Van Gogh's Son Beaten by Arab Thugs   7/29/2005 3:16:20 PM
Guess what the reaction of the police was? http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/007407.php swhitebull - Pharsalus, you can love your neighbor as much as you want, as long as you dont get garrotted, knifed, butchered, etc. Your attitude is a bit naive post 9/11, 3/11, 7/7, bali, egypt, india, and of course - Israel - the principal victim and receipient of Arab terrorism. They dont care if you love them, all THEY want to do is kill YOU.
 
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Herc the Merc    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/29/2005 3:29:27 PM
Nothing the Europeans can do. ie Deportation- how?? most are citizens, internment- r u kidding??, aggressive police action and education and patience is the only way - after all society goes thru its phases. Driving is still more dangerous than terrorism. Too much hype. Besides its not the Islamic Fundamentalists that bother me - they can do so much.. its the guys with the ICBMs that I worry about hmmmm what religion are they mostly??
 
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Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/30/2005 6:07:34 PM
True Herc, good point - it's just not worth all the fuss. Cheers to the Brits for going al "Ah, it's happend before, we know the routine, let's not worry"-thing... What their police did, they shot this young Brazilian -terrible, but understandable. If you're a immediate, visible threat, you should be stopped. The police shouts at you to stand still, you do so. Those are the rules now. Be vigilant, but don't worry. Be mindful of what you do and think, and love not only your neighbour. (please refer to string theory - we're all the same energy field anyway :) It's just another fasion thing, maybe. People like to be scared, I guess, so go and watch a ellraiser movie or something. If you see an Arabian dude with a sword(/gun/bomb) running at you in your home town, *then* you can shoot.
 
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Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/30/2005 6:15:57 PM
By the way, FJV, think so? I live here(there) too (Den Haag), there is hatred, yeah, but more of the Pim Fortuin-variety. There are relatively little violent... ah, let's just say Nazis around, they can do only a certain amount of damage. I feel the rest is apalled enough to do at least nothing... (non-dutchies: Pim Fortuin was (in my view) a somewhat right-wing rich flamboyant candidate for Leadership. He was shot by a environmental activist.)
 
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FJV    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/30/2005 7:07:04 PM
I used to think it was not "that" bad too and that the response would propably be demonstrations for throwing fundamentalist imams out of the country and some akward cursing and swearing at Muslims. Instead what I saw were arson attacks on mosques and a Islamic school. I suspect that the reaction of the Dutch after the van Gogh murder towards Muslims could be more violent than the reaction of Americans towards Muslims after 9/11. One should divide the number of arson attacks by the number of the population to know this for sure. And it's not just whites, there is also hatred between the different minorities. If you want to find out you could ask the average Antilliaan, Surinamer or even Turk how they feel about Morrocans. These hatreds are not adressed and solved, because the whole debate on these issues is effectively paralyzed by political correctness.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/31/2005 9:08:46 PM
I'm surprised at the post by swhitebull that the Dutch are doing nothing to protect Van Gogh's son from what are obviously violently predisposed muslims. In the USA the police wouldn't even need called, the fellow students and even teachers would have his back, let alone the police. Sometimes when you "turn the other cheek" all that is accomplished is that you get slapped on both sides of your face.
 
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eon    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/31/2005 10:34:16 PM
In the name of "political correctness", the entire Western world has spent a quarter-century convincing itself that if it is multicultural enough, sensitive enough, caring enough, and non-judgemental enough, everyone who hates modern civilization will change, and we'll all love each other, join hands and spend the rest of eternity singing "Kumbayah". >It isn't going to happen.< The enemy hate, fear, and despise us for >not being them<- the technical term is xenophobia. And any of their own people who deviate, in any way, from that orthodoxy are killed just as quickly as they kill us "unbelievers". I'd like to believe the world Pharsalus wants is possible, but logic tells me it isn't. At least, not as long as the jihadis exist. "Peaceful coexistence" was a non-starter with Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, Fascist Italy, and (later) the USSR and Communist Bloc- but people still believe it's possible, in spite of all evidence to the contrary. ("This could be considered either eternal optimism or persistent stupidity, depending upon the state of one's liver"- Eric Frank Russell.) The only "co-existence" possible between the Islamic world and the rest of us will, I'm afraid, be the sort we had with the Axis after V-E and V-J Days. And it's about time we all faced up to it, got down to the job, and got it over with. Yes, this >is< going to be a multi-generational war, between our civilization and a group who want to destroy both our civilization and their own (to reinstate a fancied "Golden Age" that never really existed to begin with), but pretending that if we're just >nice< enough, all will be well, isn't going to make it any shorter. Non-violence worked for Gandhi because the British didn't want to kill anybody if they could avoid it. These b*****ds are the exact opposite; if they aren't killing, they consider it a mistake they have to correct. In this context, "turning the other cheek" won't get it slapped- it'll get you beheaded, sooner or later. Until Europe faces up to this, and changes its behavior accordingly, all it can do is wait for the next 9/11, or 7/7. And the next. And the next.
 
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sanman    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/31/2005 11:07:32 PM
Exactly, and everytime a new 9/11, 3/11, 7/7 happens, the liberals quickly duck to avoid public backlash, and then they go determinedly right back to supporting the terrorists as victims of society, western evil, or some combination thereof. And that's what's spawned a rising distrust of the main media institutions. Change is on the way.
 
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