Military History | How To Make War | Wars Around the World Rules of Use How to Behave on an Internet Forum
Terrorism Discussion Board
   Return to Topic Page
Subject: What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?
Scorpene    7/16/2005 1:14:24 PM
If I could mainly get some replies from Europeans on this one, it would be icing on the cake. By all indicators, Islamic power in Europe, particularly the Continent, is on the rise. France and Germany and the Netherlands all have been in the news due to various disturbances and acts of terrorism and murder. I used to say that if I was a Russian defense planner I would be going nuts-- but I would rather be a Russian defense planner than someone who was charged with figuring out how to keep Europe from a religious and social upheaval the likes of which haven't been seen since the Middle Ages between Islam and the West. My perception of Europe is that at some point in the future, if things continue to worsen (and it appears they will) the Europeans may just decide to do what must be done to fix things, even if that means some serious bloodshed. Forced deportations, preventative internment, or numerous nonsociable calls by GSG-9 and GIGN or similar. Or, perhaps even worse. Now, I am NOT judging the Europeans. The U.S. has no situation like this-- our Mexican border problem is tame by comparison in my opinion, as Mexicans and all have generally assimilated acceptably; I am not trying to say what Europe should or should not do. I am asking what Europe will do, if indeed the situation continues to escalate. No moral judgements or talking down here. Just the facts. Europe is in for a rough ride, and I don't envy them. Period.
 
Quote    Reply

Show Only Poster Name and Title     Newest to Oldest
Pages: PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT
Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/31/2005 11:22:53 PM
Europe survived hundreds of peaceful appeasements to their problems as they all dealt with whichever particular country in the are was big, bad, and pissed off. They don't realize that you cannot impose Christian actions and reactions to those of Islamic Extremists. Many dead women and children are necessary before reality sets in. I wish everyone was smart enough to look at the devil, recognize him, and work together to destroy him. But humans are petty people who much prefer ignoring problems in the hope they go away. Personally i doubt we will get around to winning this war until the Jihadi's get some nukes. Then the idiots who are advocating peace while Islamic states build nukes will finally be discredited, and we will all realize the consequences of inaction.
 
Quote    Reply

Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 4:03:02 AM
"-They don't realize that you cannot impose Christian actions and reactions to those of Islamic Extremists." My values are Buddhist and I'n not going to impose them on anyone. Why impose? Are Christian values better than Islamic ones? From whose point of view? What exactly does 'better' mean? No, maybe the Middle Way is the best. Love everyting that lives, live & let live and protect your loved ones in needed. I just don't think, as said before, it's worth all the effort. Maybe a couple of thousand poeple want to kill us *all*, but that's a 1-to-a-million ratio against the terrorists. You have more chance of being hit by a solar flare... What might really work? One might try to terrorize the terrorists - kill anyone who associates with them, including women and babies. Send a (suspected) terrorist the head of his wife (in a box, obviously) and he might -MIGHT- back off. But then you'd be one of them, too. It's just what you want... A while ago, I broke up with my Pakistani girlfriend; I did this because she considered Maoris/Aboriginines/Bushmen and the like non-human and in a Big Discussion I threw her out. Now, this is rather inconsiderate of me, I could just as well have respected her opinion. FJV is right, there's a lot of hate bubbling under the surface, with integrated foreigners too. We can either express this rage or channel it. Terrorist bring terror, so the best thing to do is to ignore them. And yes, I think ignoring them will make them go away.
 
Quote    Reply

Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 4:48:19 AM
"We can either express this rage or channel it. Terrorist bring terror, so the best thing to do is to ignore them. And yes, I think ignoring them will make them go away." With Pakistan having, and Iran soon to have, nuclear weapons we are approaching a point in time when our inaction will spell disaster. It will take awhile until they miniaturize their nukes enough for it to be feasible, but have no doubt, that is their dream. While Americans dream of B-2 bombers dropping bombs on Osama, they dream of setting a nuke off on Washington, maybe New York, or will it be London maybe? Rogue nations like North Korea, Iran, and Pakistan too despite the fiction that is the status quo are going to have suitcase nukes eventually. How will we ever know who built it? Say North Korea gets pissed off again and sells a couple nukes through a South African intermediary or something like that throwing the scent off their trail. Maybe a coup in Pakistan, nukes go missing. Or maybe the Iranians supply a couple to be used against Israel. Nuclear weapons cannot be allowed in nations that support terror or are little pissant countries like North Korea who lie and sell arms on the side.
 
Quote    Reply

Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 6:10:17 AM
Pseudonym, funny thing is: you're absolutely right. It might happen, and it probably will. The point is not to worry about it too much. Every time you drive a car, fly a plane or eat a shrimp sandwich, you may die. And then again, you may not. Secondly, I feel you sort of over-estimate the size of the problem, but that's just a feeling, not objective knowledge. Not *everyone* wants to maim and kill me, at least, I hope so. It is a well-know fact that if humanity is able to archieve something, it will. So, logically, nuclear weapons will become more common -you just have to make them- and not all the owners will be Trusted by the good guys. Question is, what can you do about it WITHOUT OVERSTRETCHING YOUR IDEALS OF YOUR SOCIETY. A lot of people seem to be clinging to their fear right now. This causes them to feel special (*they* are targeted) and threatened (they are *targeted*) and because their feelings are so clear and dominant, they become more important than anything else, an obsession if you will. The point with hunting, for example, is not to kill every living thing in a 100 mile radius. The point is killing what you need to survive. Same with defense: you can either defend your loved ones or just blindly terminate every possible threat, which to me means you've gone blind with hate. It's like the Buddha said: "Moderation, please".
 
Quote    Reply

eon    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 7:58:21 AM
Absolutely true, Pharsalus. But I would point out that when hunting, if you stake yourself out for the tiger, >without< having a rifle to shoot him with when he comes around, you probably should have read the instructions a bit more carefully. And (not to get personal, but) if your former significant other considerds certain groups "subhuman", I don't really think even the Gautama Buddha could have extended his tolerance to that level. I don't consider our opponents "subhuman"- they are humans who practice a form of belief that is actively dangerous to the rest of humanity. Very big difference. (And one we ignore at our, and everyone else's, peril.)
 
Quote    Reply

Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 10:45:00 AM
Eon: Good one, this tiger metaphor :) And I'm not saying "Turn the other cheek". It's as they say in Star Wars: anger leads to the Dark Side of the Force. And so do fear, and doubt. Also, on the historical-reference-front: Nóóóóbody expects the Spanish Inquisition (to quote Monty Python). This was a thime when Christian rulers/clerics tried to kill everything non-conformal. And this was in Europe, dear friends. We used to *be* these fanatics. Now we live in a different but not nessessarily better world; some US schools still say darwin was a liar, I personally know of a Belgian school where they forbid you to wear non-white underwear (and they check!) and as I said, my ex-girlfriend thought Maoris are subhuman. So let's not go off blaming all those bloody Arabs (at home or otherwise), THEY'RE NOT THE PROBLEM! It's the fanatics, the people who think they and their race/sub-culture/country is the only one that should survive The Big Struggle - which doesn't even exist. These people can be Dutch, French, American or even (yes I know) Arab. They should be ignored for the rest of eternity, but not forgotten. And yes, to all you 'the best defence is a good offence'-people out there: see Eon's metaphor. If you go hunting a tiger with a 155mm Paladin artillery piece, you probably won't catch much. Take a decent rifle ( .700 H&H ;), keep quiet about it and take a decent aim - if you miss, the tiger will eat you.
 
Quote    Reply

Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 2:24:48 PM
How many nukes need to go off before it reaches the point where we need to attack Pharsalus? I'm not worried about my lifetime, but I don't want my children and grandchildren to be dealing with nuclear attacks fifty years down the line.
 
Quote    Reply

Pharsalus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 4:41:00 PM
Who do you want to attack?
 
Quote    Reply

Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/1/2005 11:41:35 PM
dont gotta attack anyone, embargoes will work just as well.
 
Quote    Reply

eon    RE:Embargoes   8/2/2005 7:09:10 AM
Only if everyone else goes along with the gag. The last time I looked, there wasn't a single embargo declared by the U.S. and/or UN that >hadn't< been repeatedly violated, to wit; 1. Union embargo of Confederacy, 1861-65; violated by England, France, and most of Europe 2. British (later League of Nations) embrago of arms trade to China, 1897-1930; violated by Germany, France, Spain 3. U.S. embargo of Spain, 1898; violated by everybody 4. U.S. embargo of Germany, 1916-18/1933-39; violated by most South American countries and several U.S. commercial combines, notably Ford 5. U.S. embargo of North Korea, 1950-date; violated by everyone, including the U.S. (during Carter and Clinton Administrations) 6. U.S. embargo of North Vietnam, 1965-97; ignored by everyone except UK (God bless 'em) 7. U.S. embargo of Iran, 1979-date; ditto 8. U.S. embargo of Iraq, 1990-2003; ignored by France, Germany, and PRC >even with UN sanctions threatened< (but never actually imposed on violators); and of course 9. U.S. embargo of Cuba, 1959-date; Never observed by any European or other government except UK when not run by rad-left Labour (Neil Kinnock, Eddie Heath, and friends). When you do something that doesn't work on the grounds that it "feels good", you're really ducking the issue and/or fooling yourself. Embargoes, like prohibitions, are a concrete example of this if everyone doesn't agree to play by the rules.
 
Quote    Reply
PREV  1 2 3 4 5 6 7   NEXT



 Latest
 News
 
 Most
 Read
 
 Most
 Commented
 Hot
 Topics