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Subject: What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?
Scorpene    7/16/2005 1:14:24 PM
If I could mainly get some replies from Europeans on this one, it would be icing on the cake. By all indicators, Islamic power in Europe, particularly the Continent, is on the rise. France and Germany and the Netherlands all have been in the news due to various disturbances and acts of terrorism and murder. I used to say that if I was a Russian defense planner I would be going nuts-- but I would rather be a Russian defense planner than someone who was charged with figuring out how to keep Europe from a religious and social upheaval the likes of which haven't been seen since the Middle Ages between Islam and the West. My perception of Europe is that at some point in the future, if things continue to worsen (and it appears they will) the Europeans may just decide to do what must be done to fix things, even if that means some serious bloodshed. Forced deportations, preventative internment, or numerous nonsociable calls by GSG-9 and GIGN or similar. Or, perhaps even worse. Now, I am NOT judging the Europeans. The U.S. has no situation like this-- our Mexican border problem is tame by comparison in my opinion, as Mexicans and all have generally assimilated acceptably; I am not trying to say what Europe should or should not do. I am asking what Europe will do, if indeed the situation continues to escalate. No moral judgements or talking down here. Just the facts. Europe is in for a rough ride, and I don't envy them. Period.
 
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Pharsalus    RE:Embargoes   8/2/2005 9:49:28 AM
And, ofcourse, who would you embargo? (as far as that's a verb :) If you put a blockade on a country, all you do is hurt the Simple Local People - the bad guys will take their share no matter what. Just look at the 199x Iraq embargo, oil-for-food programme. OK, Saddam -might- not have been able to build nukes, but 'we' starved half the country. Saddam still was a homicidal bastard who took what he could get from his own people - who did't have anything to start with, partly through our blockade. No sorry, the solution is not a Final one. Love, diplomacy and the SAS, that might have a chance.
 
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eon    RE:Love, Diplomacy and the SAS   8/2/2005 2:12:43 PM
Sorry to say, but my philosophy is, screw the flowers, send 'em the thorns. (Or in this case, the lads with the suppressed MP5s.)
 
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Pseudonym    RE:Love, Diplomacy and the SAS   8/2/2005 4:28:38 PM
"No sorry, the solution is not a Final one. Love, diplomacy and the SAS, that might have a chance." So you advocate suicidal attacks on fortified nuclear weapon construction plants, most likely deep underground. Hmm. Send in the SAS, I'm okay with sacrificing hundreds of American SOF on a suicide mission. So what if a few people break an embargoe. The overall effect will put a pinch on North Korea and Iran, making them choose between feeding their people or building nuclear weapons. Nuclear programs are EXTREMELY expensive. Before you go saying let love work Pharsalus, would you please go read a history of North Korea. Sitting back and waiting for the nukes to start going off is not what i call a sane option. Imagine if one goes off and we find a way to trace it. Needless to say, there will be retaliation, how many millions will die so we could, "let love work"?
 
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PlatypusMaximus    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/2/2005 6:51:43 PM
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Print this page Italy bans Islamic burqas Natasha Bita, Florence 01aug05 ITALY has banned Islamic burqas under tough terrorism laws that provide two-year jail terms and E2000 ($3200) fines for anyone caught covering their face in a public place. The counter-terrorism package, passed by Italy's parliament yesterday, doubles the existing penalty for wearing a burqa or chador -- traditional robes worn by Muslim women to cover their faces -- or full-faced helmets or balaclavas in public. Police can extract DNA samples without a suspect's consent, detain them for 24 hours without a lawyer present, and deport foreigners suspected of terrorism under the new legislation. Soldiers involved in counter-terrorism have been given the same stop-and-search powers. The changes, approved in a rare show of bipartisanship, came as Italian police arrested a fugitive hunted by British police over the bungled bombing attempt in London on July 21. "In the course of the investigation, it has been possible to identify a dense network of individuals from the Eritrean and Ethiopian communities in Italy, believed to have helped the fugitive cover his tracks," Italian Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu told the Senate. "We have before us a grave threat that has to be confronted with all the means of prevention and contrast that we have." Italian media yesterday reported that the suspected terrorist, named by British police as Somali-born Hussain Osman, was Hamdi Adus Issac, 27, born in Ethiopia and allegedly granted British citizenship using false Somali documents. Osman, who reportedly lived in Rome for several years and speaks fluent Italian, is fighting Britain's extradition request via a European arrest warrant. He slipped through Britain's security dragnet last week by catching a train from London's Waterloo station to Paris. He then moved to Milan and Rome, where Italian police arrested him during a raid on a relative's apartment. They had been tracking him by monitoring his mobile phone. Italy's biggest newspapers reported that Osman had admitted to his Italian police interrogator that he had carried a bomb on to a train in his backpack. Italy's opposition leader, former European Commission president Romano Prodi, yesterday pledged to withdraw Italy's 3000 troops from Iraq if his centre-left coalition wins elections due by June next year. "We will withdraw them as a occupying force because our job will be to aid in the reconstruction of Iraq," he said. Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi -- who has said Italy will progressively withdraw its troops starting in September -- accused his rival of putting Italian soldiers' lives at risk by defining them as "occupying". "He's breaking Western solidarity, justifying and enticing attacks against our troops," Mr Berlusconi said. Foreign Minister Gianfranco Fini accused Mr Prodi of exposing Italy to a terrorist attack. privacy terms © The Australian
 
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eon    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   8/2/2005 7:00:34 PM
Proving conclusively (as if we needed any more evidence) that the Euro-socialist left is just as clueless as our American version.
 
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Pharsalus    RE:Love, Diplomacy and the SAS   8/2/2005 7:06:52 PM
Guys, maybe we should kind of drop the discussion? The guy who started the thread asked for objective information and our views on things; we've expressed the latter ones thouroughly. Tomorrow I'll try & find some numbers...
 
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Pharsalus    RE:Love, Diplomacy and the SAS   8/3/2005 7:36:04 AM
Here's an overview of violent occurrances in Holland deemed terrorist, 1999 - now. - Unknown Group attacked Educational Institutions target (Nov. 8, 2004, Netherlands) An explosive device detonated at the Tarieq Ibnu Zyad Muslim school in the southern Dutch town of Eindhoven. The device blew the front door off the school but took place in the middle of the night and didn't cause any casualties. Windows in nearby buildings were also shattered by the blast. Authorities believe that this attack was a retaliatory attack after Tuesday's slaying of a Dutch film maker. Theo Van Gogh was shot and stabbed by suspected Islamic radicals and this attack may be in retaliation for that incident. - Other Group attacked Journalists & Media target (Nov. 2, 2004, Netherlands) Theo Van Gogh, a Dutch film maker, was shot and killed as he rode his bike through Amsterdam. Van Gogh was also stabbed and two knives were left in his body, reportedly along with a piece of paper with text from the Koran. Van Gogh was a controversial film maker, most recently making a piece which featured Islamic women and the way they are treated in the Middle East and South Asia. Van Gogh had received death threats after the film was released because of his portrayal of the women in the film. A total of nine suspected Islamic radicals were arrested in connection with this attack. One man, the suspected perpetrator is being identified as Mohhamed Bouyeri, and is not known to be a part of any major terrorist group. Dutch authorities will charge the suspects of terrorism-related activities. In May 2005, Dutch authorities arrested a second man, Bislan Ismailov, a Russian, who is believed to be involved in a Chechen Islamic group and is linked to this murder. Ismailov's fingerprints were found on documents in the home of Mohhamed Bouyeri. Bouyeri pled guilty to the murder of Van Gogh on 12 July 2005, stating that his religious beliefs drove him to perpetrate the attack. Bouyeri is facing life in prison. In court, the suspect stated, "I take complete responsibility for my actions. I acted purely in the name of my religion. I can assure you that one day, should I be set free, I would do exactly the same, exactly the same." - Unknown Group attacked Government target (Dec. 30, 2003, Netherlands) A parcel bomb, the fourth in three days, was sent to the headquarters of Eurojust, a European Union (EU) law enforcement group, in the Hague, Netherlands. The Eurojust office, as well as the International Criminal Court, which is located in the same building, were evacuated while bomb experts examined the device. This package bomb, along with the previous three, were all sent from Bologna, Italy and targeted EU figure heads. Authorities believe that Italian anarchists are behind the attacks - Unknown Group attacked Police target (Dec. 29, 2003, Netherlands) Identical to above - Unknown Group attacked Religious Figures/Institutions target (Nov. 30, 2002, Netherlands) A petrol bomb was hurled at a mosque in Venlo, by an unidentified perpetrator who was passing by in a car. The device landed on the stairs of the mosque where it started a fire. The fire was quickly extinguished and none of the ten people at the mosque at the time were injured. - Unknown Group attacked Government target (May 12, 2002, Netherlands) Five days after Dutch politician, Pim Fortuyn, was killed, an explosive device exploded in a car parked in front of the house of a local politician. No one was injured in the blast, but a car was reportedly damaged. - Other Group attacked Government target (May 6, 2002, Netherlands) Dutch politician, Pim Fortuyn, was shot six times upon entering his limousine after finishing an interview at a radio station in Hilversum, east of Amsterdam. Fortuyn was openly gay and a prime ministerial candidate who was campaigning on a ticket to reform public services and to end immigration. Economist reports that Fortuyn wanted to halt immigration from Muslim countries out of a fear that Muslims would "erode the country's tolerance of homosexuals." Authorities later arrested and released an activist who they believed had a connection to his murder. Note: In November 2002, Volkert van der Graaf, an animal righs activist, admitted to murdering Fortuyn. He stated that he perpetrated the attack to protect Muslim immigrants and other "vulnerable" members of society. He was tried in March 2003 and charged with premeditated murder, threatening Fortuyn's driver with a weapon and possession of weapons and ammunition. Van der Graaf was sentenced to eighteen years in jail for these charges. - Communist Revolutionaries in Europe attacked Diplomatic target (Feb. 26, 1999, Netherlands) A group calling itself the "Communist Revolutionaries of Europe" attacked the Iranian Embassy at the Hague, throwing Molotov tails at the building. One window was broken and a small fire was started outside the building but otherwise damage was minimal. The group claimed to be s
 
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Pharsalus    Numbers, numbers   8/3/2005 8:21:05 AM
(last source was http://www.tkb.org/MoreCountryIncidents.jsp?countryCd=NL) if you understand Dutch (...) check http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lijst_van_terroristische_aanslagen http://www.novatv.nl/index.cfm?cfid=21130&cftoken=72422804&ln=nl&fuseaction=achtergronden.details&achtergrond_id=487 In short: There is a small radical Islamist presence in Holland, about 200 people, the al-Aqsa groep. A couple of people got arrested, (12 men, of which 6 members of the Algerian GSPC). Another 150 became slightly suspect for taking diving lessons, they might try and blow up oil or gas platforms at sea. Or work at them, ofcourse. Some boy was arrested too. He wanted to go off and fight the US in Afghanistan. He also had a long record of being clinically insane. Later, the police arrested some guys hou were (or so it seems) to throw a bomb at the US soldiers walking the Nijmeegse Vierdaagse (event). Arrested, no evidence, set free. Holland was also threatened on a website with London-style attacks. Apparently the threat was by Jamaat al Tawhid al-Islamiya. The gouvernment researches the threat but does not take extra precautions.
 
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taylorjohn21    US/European Response to Terrorism   8/3/2005 6:24:11 PM
I'm afraid from what I have seen the response of many European governments (especially in Germany but in other countries too) is basically to carry on as before and especially to make sure that any steps taken against this new form of extremism are 100% within the law. The other response is to blame everything on the Israeli/Palestian conflict or the Allied presence in Afghanistan/Iraq. They don't really want (or are not able) to face the extreme nature of the ideology (and the resulting danger) which confronts them and deal with it appropriately. Inspite of Bush's strong rhetoric I am not sure if he is that much better. He was content to allow Pakistan which sporned the Taliban and Al Qaeda movements to develop the nuclear bomb and continues to enjoy close relations with Saudi Arabia!! All of the above doesn't bode well for a peaceful/stable future!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
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appleciderus    Accuracy   8/3/2005 7:46:55 PM
Why is it youngsters have no perception of time lines? (I’m assuming John Taylor is 21) ***”He [BUSH] was content to allow Pakistan which sporned the Taliban and Al Qaeda movements to develop the nuclear bomb and continues to enjoy close relations with Saudi Arabia!!”*** None of the above is accurate. Pakistan spent decades developing nuclear capability, and succeeded only because of the assistance of China, North Korea, and Bill Clinton. Afghanistan and the Taliban owe much of their success to the cold war and again, Mr Clinton. Al Queda owes much of its support to muslims in general believing that there can be no peace in the world until everyone believes as they do. The Bush Administration enjoys less cordial relations with the Saudis then the Clinton Administration had enjoyed. Madeline Albright was highly respected and admired by all arab nations, especially the Saudis, who often took her advice. Continental Europe will continue periodic stopgap measures against islamic offenses, while realizing enormous profits in forbidden trade with those nations that fund terrorism against them. And again, when Europe is on the brink of disaster, they will cry for assistance as “loyal allies” and “the home of Western Civilization”. Screw ‘em!
 
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