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Subject: What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?
Scorpene    7/16/2005 1:14:24 PM
If I could mainly get some replies from Europeans on this one, it would be icing on the cake. By all indicators, Islamic power in Europe, particularly the Continent, is on the rise. France and Germany and the Netherlands all have been in the news due to various disturbances and acts of terrorism and murder. I used to say that if I was a Russian defense planner I would be going nuts-- but I would rather be a Russian defense planner than someone who was charged with figuring out how to keep Europe from a religious and social upheaval the likes of which haven't been seen since the Middle Ages between Islam and the West. My perception of Europe is that at some point in the future, if things continue to worsen (and it appears they will) the Europeans may just decide to do what must be done to fix things, even if that means some serious bloodshed. Forced deportations, preventative internment, or numerous nonsociable calls by GSG-9 and GIGN or similar. Or, perhaps even worse. Now, I am NOT judging the Europeans. The U.S. has no situation like this-- our Mexican border problem is tame by comparison in my opinion, as Mexicans and all have generally assimilated acceptably; I am not trying to say what Europe should or should not do. I am asking what Europe will do, if indeed the situation continues to escalate. No moral judgements or talking down here. Just the facts. Europe is in for a rough ride, and I don't envy them. Period.
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taylorjohn21    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus    8/4/2005 4:36:11 AM
Except that Pakistan actually completed it atomic bomb tests under Bush - you say that the Bush Administration enjoys less cordial relations with the Saudis then the Clinton Administration had enjoyed. Am I not right in thinking that the Bushes have close family ties with the Saudi Royal family?
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taylorjohn21    RE:Accuracy further reply to appleciderus    8/4/2005 4:50:23 AM
Not all Muslims support Al-Kaeda, but it does have support in some countries such as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia which is why I mentioned Pakistan's nuclear program and Saudi Arabia's close ties with America.
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anuts    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus    8/4/2005 6:25:57 AM
"Am I not right in thinking that the Bushes have close family ties with the Saudi Royal family?" Every administration since the 1950's, has enjoyed 'close family ties' with the Saudi royal family. The point?
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taylorjohn21    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus - The point   8/4/2005 7:50:51 AM
The funding/support for organizations such as Hamas/Al Kaeda etc has come from Saudi Arabia it has also tried to export its own brand of Islam to other Muslim countries as well. Yet, the US maintains close ties with that country.
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Pseudonym    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus    8/4/2005 9:03:25 AM
The Saudi Royals are actually on our side somewhat, but due to their need to limit their actions lest they upset too much of their population they are unable to effectively fight the source of our problems. They can fight Al Qaeda all they want to, but while they do that, their clerics and mullahs are preaching hatred in their streets, gathering money and sending it off to build schools in the rest of the Middle East where they also preach their hatred. Unfortunately the Saudi oil is necessary, the economic implications of attacking them are enormous, and then there is the fact that Saudi is basically the religious center of Islam (which would undoubtedly piss off a good portion of the Muslim world. The Siege of Mecca has a certain ring to it.) Myself, I prefer slowly preparing alternative oil sources, then eventually blockading and embargoing them. Once they are flat broke, they will have no money to send Maddrassas around the world, they won't have money to support terrorists, they will have just enough to kickstart their oil industry. I can't wait till that day, I'll buy some Saudi Royal Prince's Mercedes Limosine for a steal.
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taylorjohn21    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus - An alternative Strategy   8/4/2005 9:47:32 AM
Wouldn't the safest thing be to find alternative energy sources now, rather than maintain involvement in a region that is so HOSTILE/VOLATILE (and uncontrollable) as the Middle East has proven to be. It seems to me ironic that the countries which have proved themselves to be the most hostile to the West in general and the US in particular, are those, whose governments have close political ties with America - this seems to me to be one of the causes of terrorism against the West. Inspite of the Arab/Israeli wars, the two Gulf Wars no one from Iraq/Syria/Iran/West Bank, Gaza has yet been implicated in terrorist actions directly targeted against western targets ie on US/European soil. Most of the hijackers of 7/11 came from Saudi Arabia/Egypt, the London bombers originated from Pakistan etc.
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Pharsalus    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus - An alternative Strategy   8/4/2005 11:24:32 AM
Agreed! Plus, maybe, spending a bit of our inflated military budgets to stop people starving from hunger. Can you imagine a McDonald's in Mogadishu? No matter how zealeous the fanatics are, if the man-in-the-street is happily munching a Big Mac, he wont care too much SINCE (some of) HIS BASIC HUMAN NEEDS ARE MET. Now if we could do the same thing for education and health care, I wonder wether there'll be many wars at all...
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Pseudonym    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus - An alternative Strategy   8/4/2005 12:06:20 PM
Hydrogen fuel cells will be available in about 10 years, but will cost hundreds of thousands. Since Hydrogen is apparently our best bet, it will take time. Say 25 or so years to become economically feasible. Our country is literally addicted to oil, we can't just up and change that. It will take decades of slow conversion.
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taylorjohn21    RE:Accuracy reply to appleciderus - An alternative Strategy   8/4/2005 12:24:25 PM
I don't agree there is a direct correlation between poverty and the type religious extremism which had manifested itself in suicide attacks against US/Europe. Many of the people involved in 9/11, and the London/Madrid bombings came from well-to-do backgrounds - what they did was premeditated not an act of desparation or impulsive anger.
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taylorjohn21    An alternative Strategy - reply to Pseudonym   8/4/2005 12:28:17 PM
There must be a way of reducing energy dependence on the Middle East - if all the leading industrial countries put their minds to it I'm sure they would come up with something in a time frame of less than 25 years.
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