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Subject: What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?
Scorpene    7/16/2005 1:14:24 PM
If I could mainly get some replies from Europeans on this one, it would be icing on the cake. By all indicators, Islamic power in Europe, particularly the Continent, is on the rise. France and Germany and the Netherlands all have been in the news due to various disturbances and acts of terrorism and murder. I used to say that if I was a Russian defense planner I would be going nuts-- but I would rather be a Russian defense planner than someone who was charged with figuring out how to keep Europe from a religious and social upheaval the likes of which haven't been seen since the Middle Ages between Islam and the West. My perception of Europe is that at some point in the future, if things continue to worsen (and it appears they will) the Europeans may just decide to do what must be done to fix things, even if that means some serious bloodshed. Forced deportations, preventative internment, or numerous nonsociable calls by GSG-9 and GIGN or similar. Or, perhaps even worse. Now, I am NOT judging the Europeans. The U.S. has no situation like this-- our Mexican border problem is tame by comparison in my opinion, as Mexicans and all have generally assimilated acceptably; I am not trying to say what Europe should or should not do. I am asking what Europe will do, if indeed the situation continues to escalate. No moral judgements or talking down here. Just the facts. Europe is in for a rough ride, and I don't envy them. Period.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 6:03:51 PM
The situation over here is much more relaxed, TV reports in the US tend to be somewhat, hmh, emotional IME. Germans have been killed abroad. Some terrorist planned attacks here: They have been arrested and in some cases already been put on trial. The criminal system and the intelligence network seem to be working and are being upgraded. No need to panic. There will be attacks at home in the future, no doubt about it. People will die. So what. We had bombings before. People are shocked and angry about the terrorist violence, but not (at least yet) afraid. The main muslim group in Germany is of Turkish origin, and their integration seems to be gaining momentum. So I see no deportation of Muslims in the near future, but I like to quote a former commander of the Swiss Army: We have the means to remove any foreigners if the need arises. You might want to look up the African-American riots, esp. how the radical groups of the 1960´s were defanged by the FBI. There might be some parallels ...
 
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french stratege    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 6:33:00 PM
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 6:34:56 PM
"There will be attacks at home in the future, no doubt about it. People will die. So what." --dummnutzer --Classic European solution. And your comparison or Islamic Radical to the Civil Rights movement is highly invalid. If you disagree and believe you are able to support your comparison we can discuss this futher.
 
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eon    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 7:12:44 PM
European history has been fraught with wars fought over religion (Thirty Years War, War of the Spanish Succession, Spanish Armada, etc). In fact, the initial invasion of Europe by Islamic armies in the 7th Century A.D. could be defined as a religious war, except it was more properly a religious..crusade. (I'm sure that term would not sit well with the modern Islamists, but it is applicable.) Europe today, having become possibly the most secularized cultural mass on Earth, now tends to believe that religion is a secondary issue, or perhaps a non-issue, ecxcept to those of limited intelligence (like those Bible-thumping "Red State" Americans, FI). What they don't seem to grasp is that they are, once again, dealing with an aggressively "missionary" religion, that regards them (Europeans) as the heathens. And this religion is already in their midst, well-established, with a surfeit of true believers and followers who are willing to kill and/or die to promulgate the One True Faith. I'd say the time for Europe to get "frightened", or at least actively concerned, was about a decade ago. Since they didn't, and apparently refuse to do so now in spite of all the evidence, all they can do now is hunker down and wait for the incoming. I suspect it won't be a very long wait.
 
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dummnutzer    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 8:05:44 PM
Q:"And your comparison or Islamic Radical to the Civil Rights movement is highly invalid." Subsuming the radical African-American groups like the militant fringe of the Black Panther or the Nation of Islam under the Civil Rights Movement seems strange. Yet these groups were transformed into still irrelevant, but non-violent movements. How? There seem to have been some infiltrators, some targeted killings ( e.g the black leader shot in his bed by Chicago Police, I cannot recall his name right now) and effective use of propaganda. The same thing happened with the Native American Movement and its violent fringe in the early 1970´s. We may be able to use some of these tricks against Radical Islam ... Q:"Classic European solution." Better than the American solution, namely to panic. This gives an easy victory to the enemy, as we do his job for him and destroy our free society. I cannot understand how a nation that stared down the SU blinks when faced with box-cutters and IEDs. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." observed Benjamin Franklin.
 
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bsl    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 8:28:40 PM
"Yet these groups were transformed into still irrelevant, but non-violent movements. How?" The vast gulf between the social history of the several successful British colonies in the world, notably the US, but also Australia, and one or two others, is mostly due to the fact that Europe just doesn't absorb immigrants well while we do. This is a vast simplification, but it's the core concept. Or, expressed in a different way, the genius of America is in making Americans. The sort of foreign nations in exile we find in so many European cities don't exist in America. It's not the presence of immigrant communities I have in mind. They have *always* existed in America, back to colonial days. What I mean is that there is simply no feeling, in America, of these communities as isolated, hostile islands. There have always been dangerous neighborhoods in America, but I can not think of a time or place when the danger has been based on ethnic composition. In Europe, otoh, it is common for local police to believe, with reason, that they, themselves, are in danger if they enter some foreign neighborhoods in less than overwhelming force. I'm not saying, here, that no immigrants to European countries ever adapt to local cultures. That's obviously not true. But, Europe has nurtured simmering ghettoes of foreigners, and the fault is certainly not entirely on one side. We need look no further, for instance, than the current, nasty French slur about the danger of "Polish plumbers" destroying some imagined essential characteristic of the French nation to see the sort of thing I'm speaking about. And, really, it's a well earned penalty Europe is looking at. They had a culture of immigrants who were hard working, decent, law abiding, and greatly contributing to the local countries. Then, they tried to exterminate them. And, chose to fill the empty places with the parents of the present jihadis. Oops.
 
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DarthAmerica    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/16/2005 8:29:50 PM
Again, your analysis is absurd. TO even think there is a relevant similarity between the Civil Rights movement and Radical Islamics or the methods used to deal with them is lunacy. Also no American administration has panic in dealing with the latest round of Radicals. Almost 2000 dead G.I.'s, brothers and sisters in arms, and 50 million free people are testament to that. You should use rhetoric to enhance your arguement. Not weaken it.
 
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french stratege    BSL   7/16/2005 9:08:16 PM
European nations are nation states with a strong indigeneous culture and history, at least for France. We are not willing to accept immigrants change our culture (even some leftists have accepted multicultural society). We are not like US which is a layer of immigrants retaining for a part their culture but buying at end US social and political model. We are commited to human rights: so we give them the TIME to integrate themselves (and even money) and to loose their culture and links to their country of origin . As Napoleon said of jews " a whole acceptation as citizens, no way to tolerate them as a nation (inside France)".This is true for muslim or budhist or whatever.If arabs don't integrate them, so they stay in surburbian guethos as long we are not exasperated enought to make exception to our human right commitment and send them all to see Allah paradise. To be clear a man who believe in a non French religion (or obvioulsy of foreign origin) has to make special efforts to show allegiance to our nation (which imply no sympathy for a foreign nation or group) or he will be rejected rightfully and if things turn bad subjected to the worst punishment.Take it (our culture) or leave it.To be clear the only God is French state which represent our nation and is ABOVE any religious feeling.Our patience has limits. And we know how to practice.See my previous post.
 
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sanman    RE:BSL   7/17/2005 3:48:30 AM
All this poetry is cute, but the reality of history is that the method used to win the previous war is usually responsible for the rise of the next war. Saudi and Pakistan were made into hubs of Islamist power to nurture it as a rival force to combat communism (particularly the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan). This means that these hubs (Saudi & Pakistan) have to be decisively purged of their menacing ideologies before any puny pinprick police raids abroad will do anything. You've got to Drain the Swamp. Ironically, the example given of Turkish immigrants in Western Europe relates to Kamal Ataturk's ruthless purge of Islamism from Turkey. As you may recall, Turkey was once the foremost power in the Islamist empire, and it was there that the Caliphate was seated, and later destroyed. Contrast that vigorous purge by Ataturk & Co with the ineffectual diffidence shown towards Saudi and Pakistan by Westerners today (American and European alike). As long as these hotbeds/citadels of Islamic fanaticism are allowed to continue, they will be able to generate the potent puritanical maniacal ideology which creates suicide bombers. To fall back on police departments is laughably ridiculous. Nobody wins any war by being on the Strategic Defensive. The best defense is always a good offense.
 
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Pseudonym    RE:What will happen when European fright over Islamic fundamentalism reaches critical mass?   7/22/2005 10:22:14 PM
"Better than the American solution, namely to panic. This gives an easy victory to the enemy, as we do his job for him and destroy our free society. I cannot understand how a nation that stared down the SU blinks when faced with box-cutters and IEDs." Yeah we got some things blinking. The lights on our F-14-18 that are bombing terrorists and whoever they associate into dust. Our laser emitters that guide in the pgm's blink. Sh!t we got lots of blinking things. So Dumbnut, how many terrorists has your country released?
 
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