this links in with polls in the UK where British Muslims want prayers to be read and spoken in English....

THREE CHEERS FOR THE INDIAN BORN RUSHDIE!!! HURRAY!

Hellloooooo! Isn't this the rather well spoken fellow who has been hiding for a decade or so? You remember, in fear of his life because an edict permitted by the koran was issued for his death. (as in murder) Any person who perceives this as progress needs to see me immediately: I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn.

Heh, I didn't actually say that this was some watershed breakthrough. As you point out, Rushdie is likely to earn himself another fatwa, or a bullet, or both. I'm just saying that he might be onto something, even if he doesn't have the power to achieve it. His mention of the Catholic reformist Second Vatican Council of the 1960s is a useful analogy. It might be a way to mobilize a new dynamic of change in the opposing camp.

More accurately, islam needs a Martin Luther, a Hundred Years War, a real house cleaning. It will not happen in our lifetime.

Not the Hundred Years War (that was between Britain and France) I assume you meant the Thirty Years War

I did mean the 30 years war, and all the other religious based conflicts that abolished Christian absolutism. My point was to distinguish between that "reform" and the one or two or half dozen weak voices admonishing contemporary islam. Vatican II is not a valid comparison.

What is ironic about the 30 years war is that while it was nominal fought over religion the reasons that the German princes rebelled had nothing to do with religion, funny how that works

The way you raise armies is to promise eternal salvation, with or without virgins. I'll bet there are a thousand medievil clerics rolling over that they didn't think of 'virgins'.

If there was ever a place for Muslims to have a 30 Years War, it would be in Iraq, where Shia and Sunni worlds collide. If the US withdraws, then it most certainly will happen in our lifetime.