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Subject: The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam
RaptorZ    2/23/2006 3:28:18 PM
I have harped on this subject for several posts being called everything from basically an idiot to an outright racist. Moderate Muslims must speak out and take control before something worse happens. When the Vatican becomes more vocal for protection of Christianity and such, those who value Islam best pay attention. I am not Catholic but know, from history, if the church gets involved at these high levels things are not going to turn for the better unless some middle ground can be found. Believe it or not Christians can be just as fanatical as the radical muslims. Let's not go down that path. ----------------------------------------------- Vatican to Muslims: practice what you preach Email this Story Feb 23, 12:54 PM (ET) By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor PARIS (Reuters) - After backing calls by Muslims for respect for their religion in the Mohammad cartoons row, the Vatican is now urging Islamic countries to reciprocate by showing more tolerance toward their Christian minorities. Roman Catholic leaders at first said Muslims were right to be outraged when Western newspapers reprinted Danish caricatures of the Prophet, including one with a bomb in his turban. Most Muslims consider any images of Mohammad to be blasphemous. After criticizing both the cartoons and the violent protests in Muslim countries that followed, the Vatican this week linked the issue to its long-standing concern that the rights of other faiths are limited, sometimes severely, in Muslim countries. Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria. Turkish media linked the death there to the cartoons row. At least 146 Christians and Muslims have died in five days of religious riots in Nigeria. "If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome. "We must always stress our demand for reciprocity in political contacts with authorities in Islamic countries and, even more, in cultural contacts," Foreign Minister Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told the daily Corriere della Sera. Reciprocity -- allowing Christian minorities the same rights as Muslims generally have in Western countries, such as building houses of worship or practicing religion freely -- is at the heart of Vatican diplomacy toward Muslim states. Vatican diplomats argue that limits on Christians in some Islamic countries are far harsher than restrictions in the West that Muslims decry, such as France's ban on headscarves in state schools. Saudi Arabia bans all public expression of any non-Muslim religion and sometimes arrests Christians even for worshipping privately. Pakistan allows churches to operate but its Islamic laws effectively deprive Christians of many rights. Both countries are often criticized at the United Nations Human Rights Commission for violating religious freedoms. "ENOUGH TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK" Pope Benedict signaled his concern on Monday when he told the new Moroccan ambassador to the Vatican that peace can only be assured by "respect for the religious convictions and practices of others, in a reciprocal way in all societies." He mentioned no countries by name. Morocco is tolerant of other religions, but like all Muslim countries frowns on conversion from Islam to another faith. Iraqi Christians say they were well treated under Saddam Hussein's secular policies, but believers have been killed, churches burned and women forced to wear Muslim garb since Islamic groups gained sway after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Christians make up only a tiny fraction of the population in most Muslim countries. War and political pressure in recent decades have forced many to emigrate from Middle Eastern communities dating back to just after the time of Jesus. As often happens at the Vatican, lower-level officials have been more outspoken than the Pope and his main aides. "Enough now with this turning the other cheek! It's our duty to protect ourselves," Monsignor Velasio De Paolis, secretary of the Vatican's supreme court, thundered in the daily La Stampa. Jesus told his followers to "turn the other cheek" when struck. "The West has had relations with the Arab countries for half a century, mostly for oil, and has not been able to get the slightest concession on human rights," he said. Bishop Rino Fisichella, head of one of the Roman universities that train young priests from around the world, told Corriere della Sera the Vatican should speak out more. "Let's drop this diplomatic silence," said the rector of the Pontifical Lateran University. "We should put pressure on international organizations to make the societies and states in majority Muslim countries face up to their responsibilities."
 
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mustavaris    RE:mex101   3/10/2006 1:53:03 AM
You don´t need to have religion to hate religions;)
 
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Mex101    RE:mustavaris   3/11/2006 4:34:55 PM
I say that America the Beutafull should be the National anthem.
 
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Mex101    RE:mustavaris   3/17/2006 3:17:11 PM
This is the Psalm that came to my mind in 9/11 Psalm 35 [1] Plead my cause, O LORD, with them that strive with me: fight against them that fight against me. [2] Take hold of shield and buckler, and stand up for mine help. [3] Draw out also the spear, and stop the way against them that persecute me: say unto my soul, I am thy salvation. [4] Let them be confounded and put to shame that seek after my soul: let them be turned back and brought to confusion that devise my hurt. [5] Let them be as chaff before the wind: and let the angel of the LORD chase them. [6] Let their way be dark and slippery: and let the angel of the LORD persecute them. [7] For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul. [8] Let destruction come upon him at unawares; and let his net that he hath hid catch himself: into that very destruction let him fall. [9] And my soul shall be joyful in the LORD: it shall rejoice in his salvation. [10] All my bones shall say, LORD, who is like unto thee, which deliverest the poor from him that is too strong for him, yea, the poor and the needy from him that spoileth him? [11] False witnesses did rise up; they laid to my charge things that I knew not. [12] They rewarded me evil for good to the spoiling of my soul. [13] But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom. [14] I behaved myself as though he had been my friend or brother: I bowed down heavily, as one that mourneth for his mother. [15] But in mine adversity they rejoiced, and gathered themselves together: yea, the abjects gathered themselves together against me, and I knew it not; they did tear me, and ceased not: [16] With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth. [17] Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions. [18] I will give thee thanks in the great congregation: I will praise thee among much people. [19] Let not them that are mine enemies wrongfully rejoice over me: neither let them wink with the eye that hate me without a cause. [20] For they speak not peace: but they devise deceitful matters against them that are quiet in the land. [21] Yea, they opened their mouth wide against me, and said, Aha, aha, our eye hath seen it. [22] This thou hast seen, O LORD: keep not silence: O Lord, be not far from me. [23] Stir up thyself, and awake to my judgment, even unto my cause, my God and my Lord. [24] Judge me, O LORD my God, according to thy righteousness; and let them not rejoice over me. [25] Let them not say in their hearts, Ah, so would we have it: let them not say, We have swallowed him up. [26] Let them be ashamed and brought to confusion together that rejoice at mine hurt: let them be clothed with shame and dishonour that magnify themselves against me. [27] Let them shout for joy, and be glad, that favour my righteous cause: yea, let them say continually, Let the LORD be magnified, which hath pleasure in the prosperity of his servant. [28] And my tongue shall speak of thy righteousness and of thy praise all the day long. Here is to Keep USSMC's threads moving Song of Solomon Chapter 2 [1] I am the rose of Sharon, and the lily of the valleys. [2] As the lily among thorns, so is my love among the daughters. [3] As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste. [4] He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love. [5] Stay me with flagons, comfort me with apples: for I am sick of love. [6] His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me. [7] I charge you, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, by the roes, and by the hinds of the field, that ye stir not up, nor awake my love, till he please. [8] The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. [9] My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. [10] My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away. [11] For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone; [12] The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land; [13] The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away. [14] O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely. [15] Take us the foxes, the little foxes, that spoil the vines: for our vines have tender grapes. [16] My beloved is mine, and I am his: he feedeth among the lilies. [1
 
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Mex101    RE:mustavaris   3/19/2006 5:21:56 PM
who cares about mary? Jesus loves you. Look twords God, not a mortal like Mary, Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece.
 
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Mex101    RE:Mex101   3/22/2006 10:49:51 PM
Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece. Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece. Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece. Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece. Though she was/is a saint in every way that she was selected to cary the son of God. May she rest in Piece. Do I realy need to repeat myself? Christian NOT CHATOLIC I pray to God and his son and ONLY to God and his son
 
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roadveteran    RE:The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam   5/1/2006 9:10:49 PM
I don't know what planet you people hail from but here on Earth it is easy to see that we "Christians" have invaded - call them "crusades" - the mideast many many times. I think the current waste of blood for nothing is the 7th crusade? It might sound quaint, but to many muslims it is actually very real. Fact: WE ARE INVADING! Fact: We suck up to Israeli BS so much is it any wonder that they see us as blindly being led by the "jewish lobby"? Fact: AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in US history. They don't call us the "Jewish Crusaders" for nothing. And thats a fact!
 
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swhitebull    RE:The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam   5/1/2006 10:48:26 PM
....Fact: We suck up to Israeli BS so much is it any wonder that they see us as blindly being led by the "jewish lobby"? Fact: AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in US history. They don't call us the "Jewish Crusaders" for nothing. ... ANOTHER Cogent analysis, with the enphasis on ANAL. And where, oh font of knowledge, did you come to that conclusion? Reading Rense.com? or any of the Aryan Nation Websites? or the thoroughly DISCREDITED Harvard study on the Jewish lobby? Pleae, enlighten us on your sources. ....And thats a fact! ... No, that's a crock. swhitebull - to quote my favorite character, WHAT AN IGNORAMOUS MAROON! And proud member of P.O.T.E.Z.
 
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RT    RE:The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam - Beginning?   5/3/2006 1:28:05 AM
I strongly recommend you read 'The Crisis of Islam' by Bernard Lewis. In the global parade of religions a line of monotheistic faiths start with Judaism takes a big leap when it 'goes global' with Christianity. The latter resented for hundreds of years the formers seniority. Islam, as the new kid on the block and as a universal religion like Christianity, immediately sees the first two, but especially Christianity as its main competition. Ever since the re-conquest of Spain and the arrest of the Ottomans at the gates of Vienna, Islam has been beaten first by the religious Christians and later by the Christian West in general. When Muslims look back at their golden years they need to go back such a long way that even their own most ardent supporters can’t even imagine it. Life in the Sultanate of Granada was wonderful in the 11th century, it will not be wonderful in the 21st. I don't hear the Catholic Church day dreaming about the days of King Ferdinand of Spain, or Evangelicals about the wonderful days of Puritan New England. Nor do Jews long to return to the days of Judah Maccabius or King David. When will true change come? When Muslim truly join the rest of the world in the current time frame. With the exception of Pakistan and Iran Muslim countries have not developed weapons systems of their own, The Israelis did, the Chinese have, South Africa and Brazil have. How many books have been translated from the Arabic to a western language? Spain translates more books to Spanish in a year than ever were translated to Arabic since the invention of the printing press. Muslim culture has little to offer the west, while the West has been supplying the Muslim world with everything from technology to movie stars to the know how of even producing the oil so many of the Muslim/Arab countries are lucky (or unlucky) enough to have. This causes resentment on the side of the Muslims, before 9/11 the west didn't really notice the Muslim world as such and how it will react in this struggle that the Muslims have been at since 632 AD and the west lost interest in about 1750, and only now came back to take a look. RT
 
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RaptorZ    RE:The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam   5/24/2006 1:09:22 PM
"RE:The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam 5/1/2006 9:10:50 PM I don't know what planet you people hail from but here on Earth it is easy to see that we "Christians" have invaded - call them "crusades" - the mideast many many times. I think the current waste of blood for nothing is the 7th crusade? It might sound quaint, but to many muslims it is actually very real. Fact: WE ARE INVADING! Fact: We suck up to Israeli BS so much is it any wonder that they see us as blindly being led by the "jewish lobby"? Fact: AIPAC is the most powerful lobby in US history. They don't call us the "Jewish Crusaders" for nothing. And thats a fact!" OK, I am not sure if you meant to come off pompous or not, but let me ask you for the date of the last Vatican backed crusade? That was my point....turn the other cheek has been in force for quite some time, and if you deny that well then I needn't go further with this conversation. Fact is, if the Church starts to get more vocal, then yes that is a change from the previous 100's of years....
 
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sofa    RE: Moderate Islam - not a possibility    6/13/2006 10:49:09 PM
re: reefdiver - "I'm not convinced there is a solution..." Nazi party was hard to defeat via a reasoned debate. Japan had an entire civilization built around a martial code that could not be changed through debate. Those dictums were defeated by crushing a generation and re-educating the survivors. Islam offers us the same challenge today. (A) Be assimilated. (B) Utterly destroy a generation of human beings before they destroy our civilization. Islam's stated and oft repeated mission is the destruction of my civilization and the enslavement of my family. I say "doom on you". I encourage everyone to read and really think through what the Koran and the Hadiths state. Think through what Islam represents: Barbarism and slavery. Then realize there is sadly only one solution - Total destruction of every Mulsim religious site, destruction of Mecca, death of every religious cleric, ever single one, the likely destruction of the 10% of the 1 billion, and then re-eductaion of the survivors. Short of that, buy a prayer rug. What other choice is Islam offering me? I was sad for a while. But now my eyes are open.
 
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