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Subject: The Change is Beginning Christianity vs Islam
RaptorZ    2/23/2006 3:28:18 PM
I have harped on this subject for several posts being called everything from basically an idiot to an outright racist. Moderate Muslims must speak out and take control before something worse happens. When the Vatican becomes more vocal for protection of Christianity and such, those who value Islam best pay attention. I am not Catholic but know, from history, if the church gets involved at these high levels things are not going to turn for the better unless some middle ground can be found. Believe it or not Christians can be just as fanatical as the radical muslims. Let's not go down that path. ----------------------------------------------- Vatican to Muslims: practice what you preach Email this Story Feb 23, 12:54 PM (ET) By Tom Heneghan, Religion Editor PARIS (Reuters) - After backing calls by Muslims for respect for their religion in the Mohammad cartoons row, the Vatican is now urging Islamic countries to reciprocate by showing more tolerance toward their Christian minorities. Roman Catholic leaders at first said Muslims were right to be outraged when Western newspapers reprinted Danish caricatures of the Prophet, including one with a bomb in his turban. Most Muslims consider any images of Mohammad to be blasphemous. After criticizing both the cartoons and the violent protests in Muslim countries that followed, the Vatican this week linked the issue to its long-standing concern that the rights of other faiths are limited, sometimes severely, in Muslim countries. Vatican prelates have been concerned by recent killings of two Catholic priests in Turkey and Nigeria. Turkish media linked the death there to the cartoons row. At least 146 Christians and Muslims have died in five days of religious riots in Nigeria. "If we tell our people they have no right to offend, we have to tell the others they have no right to destroy us," Cardinal Angelo Sodano, the Vatican's Secretary of State (prime minister), told journalists in Rome. "We must always stress our demand for reciprocity in political contacts with authorities in Islamic countries and, even more, in cultural contacts," Foreign Minister Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo told the daily Corriere della Sera. Reciprocity -- allowing Christian minorities the same rights as Muslims generally have in Western countries, such as building houses of worship or practicing religion freely -- is at the heart of Vatican diplomacy toward Muslim states. Vatican diplomats argue that limits on Christians in some Islamic countries are far harsher than restrictions in the West that Muslims decry, such as France's ban on headscarves in state schools. Saudi Arabia bans all public expression of any non-Muslim religion and sometimes arrests Christians even for worshipping privately. Pakistan allows churches to operate but its Islamic laws effectively deprive Christians of many rights. Both countries are often criticized at the United Nations Human Rights Commission for violating religious freedoms. "ENOUGH TURNING THE OTHER CHEEK" Pope Benedict signaled his concern on Monday when he told the new Moroccan ambassador to the Vatican that peace can only be assured by "respect for the religious convictions and practices of others, in a reciprocal way in all societies." He mentioned no countries by name. Morocco is tolerant of other religions, but like all Muslim countries frowns on conversion from Islam to another faith. Iraqi Christians say they were well treated under Saddam Hussein's secular policies, but believers have been killed, churches burned and women forced to wear Muslim garb since Islamic groups gained sway after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. Christians make up only a tiny fraction of the population in most Muslim countries. War and political pressure in recent decades have forced many to emigrate from Middle Eastern communities dating back to just after the time of Jesus. As often happens at the Vatican, lower-level officials have been more outspoken than the Pope and his main aides. "Enough now with this turning the other cheek! It's our duty to protect ourselves," Monsignor Velasio De Paolis, secretary of the Vatican's supreme court, thundered in the daily La Stampa. Jesus told his followers to "turn the other cheek" when struck. "The West has had relations with the Arab countries for half a century, mostly for oil, and has not been able to get the slightest concession on human rights," he said. Bishop Rino Fisichella, head of one of the Roman universities that train young priests from around the world, told Corriere della Sera the Vatican should speak out more. "Let's drop this diplomatic silence," said the rector of the Pontifical Lateran University. "We should put pressure on international organizations to make the societies and states in majority Muslim countries face up to their responsibilities."
 
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sofa    RE: Moderate Islam - not a possibility    6/14/2006 6:13:57 AM
Do onto Islam what Islam would do unto you.
 
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mustavaris    RE: Moderate Islam - not a possibility    6/14/2006 10:33:17 AM
I read the Quran, I studied the Hadiths, I spent months on reading Muslim forums in Europe and Finland. I engaged in discussions in those forums. I tried to understand and I tried to respect them. I drew my conclusions. There are moderate muslims, they are those with whom I have been drinking with (its common in many Muslim countries too), we have Tatars who are well regarded in Russia too, talked with my Russian friends from Moscow and St Petersburg and they agreed with me, Muslim Tatars are not a problem there either and so on. There are countries which can be considered moderate like Turkey, Malaysia and Indonesia - they are at the frontier now. The most important struggle in Islamic world is happening there. Can they continue their paths or are they on their way to descent to chaos that is so common in Arabic Islamic world? If the rabid Arab-driven tide of radical Islam is stopped there, we can hope for the better. But when we talk about moderate Muslims, I do not think that the silent majority represents it. I used to, but I was wrong and blind and again too naivé when talking about people and their intentions. Now I find the comparison between majority muslims and majority Germans in Third Reich more and more intriguing. I believe that it is right to make that comparison. If they support the moderate approach, they should rise AGAINST the radicals who killed Theo Van Gogh (among others),rise against the people who have attacked us again and again and continue to plan to do so - only our awareness and active efforts have made that harder, they would strike on any given moment if they were given a chance. Islamic forums are full of powerless and blind hate against us. And I take it really personally when I found out that MANY think that I should be killed because I am not a Jew nor a Christian. In their world I have no place. If the radicals got the power, those "moderates" would join their ranks... Religion is opium for the masses. The only thing I ask is that those who think that radicals are wrong, should make their voices heard and those who do not challenge them should accept that they are viewed as supporters of the Islamist radicals. There are no silent moderates, silent people must accept those who talk and say they represent them if they do not made themselves heard. I mean no offence to Pars, Kane and other sane Muslims here. You´re the ones who have the most to lose. I hope you´re as vocal in "real life" as you are here. Keep on doing the good job. -----and some random thoughts, for those who care to know --------- I was against the war in Iraq, I don´t still think that it was right thing to do in 2003 but in my heart I am with the people who are trying to clean that mess and establish a working Arab democracy. It would be a grand victory for us all. I have never ever supported ANY US effort like this before, my best wishes for all there and condolences for those who have lost their loved one(s) or their health. Your work is appreciated and more important than most people on this planet understand. Thank you.
 
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VelocityVector    RE: Moderate Islam - Mustavaris   6/14/2006 5:42:55 PM
> Now I find the comparison between > majority muslims and majority > Germans in Third Reich more and > more intriguing. No comparison in terms of demographics. Das Reich never achieved the critical population mass that Islam has. With Islamic fundamentalism we will witness extremism in forms not seen before simply because there are so many more people drawing upon so many more interpretations of their beliefs and experiences. Their enemy will be the same one, though, Juden and supporters thereof! (i count myself amongst the apes, dogs and swine depending on the mood I am in …) v^2
 
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mustavaris    RE: Moderate Islam - Mustavaris   6/14/2006 5:57:44 PM
"(i count myself amongst the apes, dogs and swine depending on the mood I am in …)" Good choice;) At least they won´t eat us. With a serious face: I agree, I meant that the intra-Third Reich situation was similar to present day intra-Islamic world (majority) situation when talking about moderates outside certain few areas/nations/countries. Didn´t mean anything related to demographics and stuff like that. Just intra-entity mood.
 
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S-2    RE: Moderate Islam - Mustavaris & V^2   6/15/2006 4:03:28 AM
Critical mass hasn't yet been reached. As such, the muslim moderates can sit on the sidelines safely, threatened only by radical Islam if they speak out. Until the FULL wrath of of unrepentant war is made by the civilized world (what an oxymoron in this sentence!)threatening their lives as well, will the moderates be forced to choose sides. As long as civilized mankind tolerates their fence-sitting, they SHALL fence-sit as the only retribution to be feared is from their radical brothers. Critical mass is missing. We're not close to achieving the anger necessary to confront. Instead we pontificate and dance around the central issue. While there certainly are voices in our world denouncing this looming threat, sadly they don't belong to our leaders. Just not P.C., you know? Opposition parties, parliaments, upcoming elections, etc. all mitigate against the clear clarion voices of doom. Much more must yet happen, and far worse before it is finally driven home to us that there's a remorseless and irrevocable enemy threatening all we stand for. Our self-image indulges our reasonable and rational side in the face of clear unreasoning and irrationality. Still, as a luxury evidently affordable to us, our voting populaces wallow. Which we shall do so until the enemy are at the gates. Then we'll see which muslims truly value the liberties we offer. Of course, by then, we won't be offering them. Not to muslims, nor to ourselves. Shirrush and I have had this argument with him choosing the position I take here and I choosing the "still time left, let's wait and see" approach. Go figure. They're not at my gate yet, though. I even accused him of a near-sighted paranoia rendered so by proximity. No kidding! We'll leave the REALLY hard choices for our great grand-children or grand-children. It'll take that long given our liberal sensibilities and radical Islam's inability to effectively mobilize and threaten us. But, sure as the sun rises in the east, it's coming to that. Muslims, most particularly the "reasonable" ones living amidst us are the least threatened of all. Consequently, they'll be the last to move off their comfortable two-faced approach. By which time their voice will have long since been lost or rendered null by events. Mustavaris, if you read this, check out . Verrry cool download side for a ton of old bands. Cato, bigfella, and I have been listening, and all (regardless of politics)endorse it. Gotta go and find a hole to stick my head in.
 
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