The implication of your thread is that if the Ottomans had not been defeated at Vienna in 1683 then they would have marched all throughout Europe, and spread Islam with them, and that this would "destroy" 1600 years of Christianity in Europe.

 

Several points:

 

1.)  It was never clear that the Ottomans would force Islamic conversions onto their subjects, in fact the history of the Ottomans shows the exact opposite:  Through the vilayet system the Ottomans were only concerned with exacting tribute from their subjects.  Through this system the local peoples kept their own languages, customs, and religion.

 

2.)  The Ottomans did conquer the Balkans yet the customs and religions of those peoples remained intact and today Bosnian Moslems are a small minority there.  The Ottomans had other desires in conquering land (expanding power and wealth) than just spreading Islam.

 

3.)  You also assume that 1,600 years of Christianity would be wiped out, and that the Ottomans had the manpower to do this; incorrect.  The Iberian Peninsula was occupied by Arab and Berber Moslems for nearly a thousand years, yet there is little evidence that the Islamic religion whitewashed the predominately Catholic Spain and Portugal.

 

4.)  You also assume that the Ottomans could hold that vast territory with no local resistance (i.e. no German, French or Austrian rebellions to quell, which would seem unlikely). 

 

5.)  You also forget the "Christian invasions" of Moslem land from the Crusades to the Reconquestia; 300 years of European invasions that we are embarking on again. (Why do you think bin Laden calls us "Crusaders"?)

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

 

 

 

So again this current fight against Islamic extremists is not a continuation of the 1683 invasion or the Battle of Tours.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macrohistorical_battles_tied_to_the_existence_of_European_civilisation

It's a continuation of Islam: 1400 years of murder, mayhem, aggression, slavery, butchery, and ignorance, as spelled out in the koran/hadiths.

 

"It's in the Koran": What we call 'civilisation' is anathema to islam.  

 

So what's your plan for peaceful co-existence between islam and every other way of life?  How about between islam and false muslims? 

Those are what I would call "borderline racist" statements.

 

BTW---I am still waiting for your response to my post on the Iraq board.

 

 

 

 

 

 

plutarch-your starwman and your 5 points against it.

 

The point of the original post is that civilization is anathema to islam.

Islam is in a war to destroy civilization.

We need to fight to save civilization; to defeat those who would destroy us.

We cannot allow our grandchildren to live in Islamofascist tyranny.

excerpt from:  "http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2006/11/coalition-to-preserve-civilization.html"

 

The CPC has an ambitious goal: to resist and overthrow Islamic Fascist tyranny in all its forms through the efforts of our information networks.

The Berlin Wall fell and the Soviet Union collapsed because the United States and its democratic allies held fast to their goals and never lost faith in the eventual result.

This struggle will also be won.

Western Civilization will be preserved.

Liberty will be extended to people who long for it but have never known it.

All people have the right to speak freely, to choose their religious beliefs, and to be free of the threat of violence.

This is primarily an information war, fought via the television screens and computer networks across the entire globe. The enemy is very adept at it, and has a head start. But the Islamists lack our major advantages: originality, flexibility, technical innovation, and a tradition of free enquiry. These are the skills we will use to build our networks and destroy theirs.

Make no mistake: this is a civil war within the heart of the West, between those who would appease Islamic tyranny and those who want to eliminate it; between those who would censor themselves and restrict their own rights rather than steadfastly resist any encroachment on them; between those who believe in the values and heritage of the West and those who are ashamed of them.

plutarch-you're calling me names because I tell you it's in the koran? everything you find offensive is in the koran, and is espoused in mosques every day. Read the koran and hadiths.

 

 

I for one, would like to take this opportunity to thank Charles Martel.

"5.)  You also forget the "Christian invasions" of Moslem land from the Crusades to the Reconquestia; 300 years of European invasions that we are embarking on again. (Why do you think bin Laden calls us "Crusaders"?) "

 

I don't think we should let OLB to claim Spain or the Byzantine empire was 'moslem land'.  Anymore than the US would Iraq as part of their country.

 

Uh  its called "reconquista" for a reason - reclaiming Muslim-seized lands from cultures too weak (militarily) to adequately defend their territories (cf - the Visigoths in Spain, and the Byzantines in the Levant. Nothing wrong with that, unless you feel that Muslim-conquered territory gives Islam some inalienable right to possession - forever.

 

swhitebull