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Subject: Dear Mark...
Malrait    7/6/2001 9:32:50 PM
Collaborators... Yes, there were French collaborators with the Nazi regime during WWII. They were ruthles opportunists for some, or followers of the Nazi doctrine for the others (anti-semitism, etc...) I know it sounds so revolting to you, this idea of people allying with ruthless and bloodthirsty criminals... The words "ethnic cleansing" and "racial segregation" are totally alien to your country, aren't they? WELL TELL THAT TO THE NATIVE AMERICANS OR TO THE AFRICAN AMERICANS!!! Sorry for that cheap shot, but you really deserved it. The WASPs have absolutely no lesson to give in morality. As I said to our dear friend rellik, you may have almost no history, but that has not prevented you from committing an impressive number of crimes. Malrait P.S: by the way, why do you give your military equipment the names of the peoples you slaughtered (Tomahawk, Comanche, etc...). The Germans do not call their missiles or helicopters "Barmitzva"!
 
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evlstu    RE:Dear Mark...   7/6/2001 10:07:40 PM
Actually, the "WASPs", as you call us(I assume that by WASP you mean American), do have alot to say about morality. The US is the only major country to admit to itself and the world that it makes mistakes (actually add Germany to that list too). The french naver did. Just look at Algeria and Southeast Asia. Where do you get off labeling anyone. We only refer to you as french because you have told us your french. WASP= White Anglo Saxon Protestant ....hmmm. Lets see here. Yes I have "white" ancestry but I also have Native American ancestry. Yes I am of Anglo-Saxon decent but I am also of German, Scottish, and Irish decent (I also suspect that I some Norse as well). Yes, I am of Protestant decent but I also have Anglican, Roman Catholic, and Episcapalion(sp ?) ancestry. Please define Protestant. Basically, I'm an American which means I of MIXED ancestry. So watch with the labels pal. Noone here has made a direct insult to you (yet) so don't you start insulting other people. You want to talk about Native Americans, great. You want to talk about African Americans (i.e. black-if you can use the term wasp or white then I can use the word black), fine. You want to talk about all the "bad things" (?) American has done, go for it. Just make sure you can handle the truth, if you can't then don't start an arguemant you can't win.
 
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John    RE:Dear Malrait & evlstu   7/7/2001 12:26:17 AM
Bonjour mon ami, The bit about the german helicopters was very funny, but perhaps not the most tasteful thing I've heard today. I don't think it makes much sense for us to keep saying "You can't have an opinion, because look at your country's history". I think the real argument is the one that Malrait put up some time ago, which is that Morality and realpolitik are odd bed fellows. I think he is more or less right that countries act out of self interest most of the time, but try to dress it up as human rights. Malrait has said several times that this is what France does, I'll say it is what Britain pretty much does, but what about the US? American policy can be quite confusing. On the one hand you are happy to support basically fascist dictators in South America, so long as they protect your business interests and hate Communists, but on the other you get involved in Kosovo, Somalia and lots of other places where you have no real interests to protect? What about the Marshall Plan, which was of the most generous things any country has ever done? If US policy was based on the premise "we are powerful, we have interests, we will defend them" Everyone would understand. But when it dresses itself up in the armour of morality, you have to expect people to expose the chinks in that armour.
 
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evlstu    RE:Dear Malrait & evlstu   7/7/2001 1:22:10 AM
I think you guys are missing 2 things. 1)That the best way to deal with an enemy (or possible enemy), no matter how small, is to make him your friend. Ex. Germany and Japan after WW2. 2)Alot of what America does is based off the "concept of fair play" and/or it is just plain right to help other people. Ex. All the help that the US sends to other countries when disasters occur (ALOT-probably more than all europe combined) and yet the US gets nothing in return (except a hard time).
 
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John    RE:Dear Malrait & evlstu   7/7/2001 2:50:05 PM
I hear what you're saying evlstu. My comments for discussion. 1. You can't be everyone's friend. Being Bosnia's friend makes you Serbia's enemy; being Taiwan's friend makes you China's enemy; being Pakistan's friend makes you India's enemy. 2. I'd like to distinguish between American people and the American Govt. I know that the US public gives a phenomenal amount to charity. Can't fault that. I also know that millions of your tax dollars are given away by your government. Much of it to good causes, but much of it wasted too. The problem for the recipient is that too often government largesse comes with strings attached.
 
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